DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

a new study about Neanderthal demography

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DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#1  Postby katja z » Feb 27, 2012 8:29 pm

BBC wrote:Neanderthals were already on the verge of extinction in Europe by the time modern humans arrived on the scene, a study suggests.

DNA analysis suggests most Neanderthals in western Europe died out as early as 50,000 years ago - thousands of years before our own species appeared.

A small group of Neanderthals then recolonised parts of Europe, surviving for 10,000 years before vanishing.

(...)

The scientists found that west European fossils with ages older than 48,000 years, along with Neanderthal specimens from Asia, showed considerable genetic variation.

But specimens from western Europe younger than 48,000 years showed much less genetic diversity (a six-fold reduction in variation compared to the older remains and the Asian Neanderthals).

continues


The original paper was published in Molecular Biology and Evolution:

Dalén et al. wrote:Remarkably little is known about the population-level processes leading up to the extinction of the neandertal. To examine this, we use mtDNA sequences from 13 neandertal individuals, including a novel sequence from northern Spain, to examine neandertal demographic history. Our analyses indicate that recent western European neandertals (<48 kyr) constitute a tightly defined group with low mitochondrial genetic variation in comparison to both eastern and older (>48 kyr) European neandertals. Using control region sequences, Bayesian demographic simulations provide higher support for a model of population fragmentation followed by separate demographic trajectories in subpopulations over a null model of a single stable population. The most parsimonious explanation for these results is that of a population turnover in western Europe during early Marine Isotope Stage 3, predating the arrival of anatomically modern humans in the region.
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#2  Postby HughMcB » Feb 27, 2012 8:33 pm

If this means that we didn't interbreed with neanderthals I'm gonna be super pissed. :snooty:
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#3  Postby JoeB » Feb 27, 2012 8:46 pm

HughMcB wrote:If this means that we didn't interbreed with neanderthals I'm gonna be super pissed. :snooty:

Don't worry, we can still call you our forum's favourite Neanderthal if you want :love: :P
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#4  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Feb 27, 2012 9:37 pm

HughMcB wrote:If this means that we didn't interbreed with neanderthals I'm gonna be super pissed. :snooty:


Unless you're of African decent, you shouldn't worry. Neanderthal has already been determined to be least 4% in your DNA.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#5  Postby HughMcB » Feb 27, 2012 10:20 pm

JoeB wrote:
HughMcB wrote:If this means that we didn't interbreed with neanderthals I'm gonna be super pissed. :snooty:

Don't worry, we can still call you our forum's favourite Neanderthal if you want :love: :P

Actually that does make me feel better. :grin:
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#6  Postby HughMcB » Feb 27, 2012 10:20 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:
HughMcB wrote:If this means that we didn't interbreed with neanderthals I'm gonna be super pissed. :snooty:


Unless you're of African decent, you shouldn't worry. Neanderthal has already been determined to be least 4% in your DNA.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/

:nod:

Yes this is what I was referring to. :thumbup:
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DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#7  Postby DougC » Feb 28, 2012 2:35 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17179608

B.B.C. article
"Neanderthals were already on the verge of extinction in Europe by the time modern humans arrived on the scene, a study suggests.
DNA analysis suggests most Neanderthals in western Europe died out as early as 50,000 years ago - thousands of years before our own species appeared."
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#8  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » Feb 28, 2012 10:04 am

Surely all this proves is that European Neanderthals passed through a population bottleneck 50,000 years ago. It doesn't prove they were on the brink of extinction when sapiens arrived on the scene.
It may be interesting to speculate that subsequent low genetic diversity had a hand in their later extinction, but that's all it is - speculation.

Personally I think the "highly inbred species = doomed!" card is rather overplayed generally. I'm sure genetic diversity may often have a role to play in species survival - but plenty of lineages throughout earth's history have passed through incredibly tight squeezes and come out the other side.
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#9  Postby katja z » Feb 28, 2012 10:13 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:Surely all this proves is that European Neanderthals passed through a population bottleneck 50,000 years ago. It doesn't prove they were on the brink of extinction when sapiens arrived on the scene.
It may be interesting to speculate that subsequent low genetic diversity had a hand in their later extinction, but that's all it is - speculation.


Well I haven't read the original paper (see OP for the abstract), but I think the stress on extinction is a media twist on the story. The paper title is actually Partial genetic turnover in neandertals: continuity in the east and population replacement in the west.
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#10  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 28, 2012 10:20 am

...continuity in the east and population replacement in the west.


Incidentally, this has become the prevailing model over the last couple of years - this latest bit of evidence just adds more substantiation to it.

The only area in Europe of non-replacement is Gibraltar where Neanderthals seem to have maintained a good living throughout, probably because of unique climatic conditions there, and a massive variety of food types.
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 28, 2012 10:23 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:Surely all this proves is that European Neanderthals passed through a population bottleneck 50,000 years ago. It doesn't prove they were on the brink of extinction when sapiens arrived on the scene.


What it indicates is that the extent of their range in Europe had been highly curtailed. The same changes in climatic conditions that might have been at play here could have been the ones that spurred sapiens' expansion into the Middle East.

I've just finished a 2 month long review of all the recent research on Neanderthals, and a clearer picture is beginning to arise. This latest line of evidence is entirely supportive of it.
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#12  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 28, 2012 4:15 pm

/rant

This is why I don't like anthropology being shunted off to social sciences... we end up with multiple threads on the same subject!

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/anthr ... 29727.html

The topic would be far more suited to the biology fora in precisely the same way that palaeontology is in the biology forum!

/endrant
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Re: DNA reveals Neanderthal extinction clues

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 29, 2012 9:24 am

And so it ends up back in the social sciences!

When are Palaeontological threads going to be moved here too, chaps and chapesses?
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