Is race real?

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Re: Is race real?

#601  Postby Delvo » May 13, 2010 3:58 pm

I'd link to the map of genetic divisions again, but you've shown that you'd just pretend it doesn't exist as you're doing right now, so the real question is, why do you keep demanding that which you've already been given? (That's a bit of a rhetorical question. I am curious why people would bother pretending not to know something so obvious and unavoidable, but I don't see any reason to expect your answer to be any more honest than anything else you've said about this...)
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Re: Is race real?

#602  Postby hotshoe » May 13, 2010 4:00 pm

Delvo wrote:I'd link to the map of genetic divisions again, but you've shown that you'd just pretend it doesn't exist as you're doing right now, so the real question is, why do you keep demanding that which you've already been given? (That's a bit of a rhetorical question. I am curious why people would bother pretending not to know something so obvious and unavoidable, but I don't see any reason to expect your answer to be any more honest than anything else you've said about this...)


So you define race by pointing to a spot on a map ? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Is race real?

#603  Postby Agrippina » May 13, 2010 4:09 pm

Excuse me, am I missing something? In that list of sprinters: 2 jamaicans, 6 Americans, 1 Canadians, 1 Nigerian.
Shall I quote Omar Sharif (an Egyptian) when he was asked how he felt about kissing a Jew (Barbra Streisand) in 1968:
"I don't ask the nationality of a girl before I kiss her!"

How ridiculous the people in that list are 6 Americans, not West Africans. If you're looking at the racial origins of "black" Americans, you can't do that without DNA tests, because when the slaves were brought to America (the people from whom 'black' Americans are descended) they were mixed up so that they would be forced to learn to speak English and they couldn't conspire against their owners in their own languages. So who is to say that 'black' Americans are 'west Africans."
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Re: Is race real?

#604  Postby Delvo » May 13, 2010 5:54 pm

Agrippina wrote:So who is to say that 'black' Americans are 'west Africans."
History has known all along that slave traders of the relevant era pretty much always used Atlantic ports and collected victims from relatively near the ports. I don't know how there could be any doubt about that (or is it just more of that feigned doubt again?) since the alternative would mean pointlessly crossing or circumnavigating a whole continent that they had no reason to bother with, but anyway, genetic tests in the modern population have confirmed the results, that the descendants of slaves in countries such as the USA and Jamaica predominantly have western-African genes, not eastern-African ones, just as white people getting tested in recent times have shown the distinct general genetic trends in Irish immigrants, Germans ones, Greek ones, and so on. The mixing you're talking about is among various western tribes, not between eastern and western ones.

But even regardless of the east/west distinction, it would still be conspicuous that all 10 of the top 10 male sprinters and 8 of the top 10 women were black... just as it's conspicuous how successful Amerindians are (for their limited present population size) in long-distance races even if you don't know whether they came from the tropical mountain regions, and it's conspicuous how much white people dominate in weightlifting even if you don't know whether they're eastern or western.
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Re: Is race real?

#605  Postby aspire1670 » May 13, 2010 6:02 pm

Delvo wrote:
Agrippina wrote:So who is to say that 'black' Americans are 'west Africans."
History has known all along that slave traders of the relevant era pretty much always used Atlantic ports and collected victims from relatively near the ports. I don't know how there could be any doubt about that (or is it just more of that feigned doubt again?) since the alternative would mean pointlessly crossing or circumnavigating a whole continent that they had no reason to bother with, but anyway, genetic tests in the modern population have confirmed the results, that the descendants of slaves in countries such as the USA and Jamaica predominantly have western-African genes, not eastern-African ones, just as white people getting tested in recent times have shown the distinct general genetic trends in Irish immigrants, Germans ones, Greek ones, and so on. The mixing you're talking about is among various western tribes, not between eastern and western ones.

But even regardless of the east/west distinction, it would still be conspicuous that all 10 of the top 10 male sprinters and 8 of the top 10 women were black... just as it's conspicuous how successful Amerindians are (for their limited present population size) in long-distance races even if you don't know whether they came from the tropical mountain regions, and it's conspicuous how much white people dominate in weightlifting even if you don't know whether they're eastern or western.


So you now define race by a race. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Is race real?

#606  Postby Agrippina » May 13, 2010 6:05 pm

Yep, if you can run fast, you must be black, even if your name is Zola Budd and you are a pure white South African who emigrated to America because she couldn't run for South Africa. That's right, she was black, pretending to be white.
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Re: Is race real?

#607  Postby aspire1670 » May 13, 2010 6:16 pm

Image

I won the 100m and 200m titles at the 1972 Olympics; Is it cuz I is black?
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Re: Is race real?

#608  Postby hotshoe » May 13, 2010 6:17 pm

Delvo wrote:... just as it's conspicuous how successful Amerindians are (for their limited present population size) in long-distance races even if you don't know whether they came from the tropical mountain regions, and it's conspicuous how much white people dominate in weightlifting even if you don't know whether they're eastern or western.


It's conspicuous how much boys from one neighborhood in Reading dominate in UK Olympic table tennis.

One particular genetic mutation, inbred locally ?

The origin of a new table-tennis-adapted race ?
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Re: Is race real?

#609  Postby Agrippina » May 13, 2010 6:21 pm

Aspire, look at you. NIce for a white guy!!! hahahahaha. You sure you're not from west Africa?????
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Re: Is race real?

#610  Postby Delvo » May 13, 2010 7:50 pm

Agrippina wrote:Aspire, look at you. NIce for a white guy!!!
Wait... how did you know he was white? :what:
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Re: Is race real?

#611  Postby aspire1670 » May 13, 2010 8:13 pm

Delvo wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Aspire, look at you. NIce for a white guy!!!
Wait... how did you know he was white? :what:

:picard: :picard: :picard:
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Re: Is race real?

#612  Postby Steviepinhead » May 13, 2010 9:35 pm

pinkharrier wrote:No, steviepinhead, I don't get it.

Well, so far at least, we are in agreement.
I just want your (any) explanation for the line up of the 100m sprint.

Thus far, neither of us has an "explanation." What we have is a correlation. And so far the correlation appears to be greater between Caribbean-American descendants of West Africans and the sprint events than between those events and current West Africans. Since the Caribbean and U.S. sprinters are (presumably) descended from West Africans brought over in the slave trade, who not only survived the Middle Passage but the brutal conditions of the cane and cotton fields, perhaps we're seeing something that is a result of that.

Or possibly we're still seeing a convergence between cultural preferences, opportunities, and cultural/socioeconomic effects. Short running events may initially require little expense or equipment for schools to put on and for potential athletes to compete in, compared with the gear, equipment, and training necessary for hockey or American-style football, or the courts and nets of basketball, or the courts and nets and raquets and raquet clubs of tennis, or the clubs and courses and caddying/coaching of golf, or the several thousand dollar bikes of the Tour de France or ... Peer pressure. What the girls go for... Until we study it, we don't know the "explanation."

Who were the top sprinters of a hundred years ago?

Who will be the top sprinters of a hundred years in the future?
Obviously mine is genetically based (twitch fibre etc).

But all that's been presented so far is an intriguing correlation. That might be the starting point for a hypothesis, but it's not evidence of causation, genetic or otherwise.
They won't be Inuit.

And the world's best polar bear hunters or reindeer herders or dog mushers won't likely be West African, at least over the next couple of decades. As the Jamaican bobsled team found out some years back, it takes more than sprint speed at the start to succeed in a sport requiring a long-term programmatic commitment, appropriate facilities, top-notch high-tech vehicles, coaches, years of practice, and financial and psychological support from an interested fan base...
I could have asked about Chess grandmasters or any number of things. Why - and I haven't got a clue - are 100m freestylers usually caucasian?

You're in the same position. You think you've spotted a correlation between an extremely narrow trait -- not something likely to confer any overall cultural, intellectual, or technological advantage -- and an "ethnic" background, broadly or narrowly defined. Swimming again takes expensive facilities, coaching, a fan and financial base, a long-term programmatic commitment, etc. Not something most Jamaican village schools or Ibo community centers are likely to be able to match.
If you were reporting back to Mars, you would be remiss to omit the obvious, if not the reason.

We don't need to report back to Mars. Anthropologists, physcial and cultural, have been studying communities of all kinds for well over a hundred years. "Sports" activities rank fairly low on the list of linguistic, cultural, and economic traits that are given the priority in such "reports."

You still haven't told me how a narrowly-defined physical skill, even if it should turn out to be traceable back to a given genetic basis that is "concentrated" in a small group of West African tribes, would validate the kind of overarching stereotypical categories that fall under the heading of -- not scientific study of heritable genetic differences and similarities -- but sociocultural "race" attributions ("black," "white," "African," "European," "Caucasian," "Nordic," etc.).
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Re: Is race real?

#613  Postby Steviepinhead » May 13, 2010 9:53 pm

TMB wrote:
Steviepinhead wrote:
pinkharrier wrote:Steviepinhead said "And I suspect that those selecting candidates for sports training programs -- or "scouting" for promising atheletes -- probably look for much more specific indicators of likelihood-to-excel in a given sport than could currently be garnered from some genetic assay or genealogy. and any such genealogical indicators are arguably largely overriden by such sociological factors as motivation, economics, values, ..."

Perhaps they do. But given the evidence of racial differences, they know they won't be sending their scouts to, say, Greenland. Neither would you (except to a US Air force base).

But they might be sending them to Greenland for gymnasts or dog mushers or rorqual hunters or ... And the "native" inhabitants of Greenland certainly outperformed the Viking colonists over the same timeframe during the climatic and environmental changes of the early part of this millennium.

Who is to say that the sprint events are somehow the sine qua non of human athletic achievement? :scratch:

And, as Agrippina has pointed out, who is to say that the very tail end of the bell curve -- the highest limits of international record-breaking athletic, intellectual, or artistic performance -- of continental or subcontinental subpopulations is in any way representative of the average or the mean. Newton and Einstein and Jimi Hendrix and George Washington Carver and Richard Feynman and the Benin bronze masters and Charles Edenshaw and Leonardo da Vinci all performed at a level in their respective fields of endeavor as far beyond any "ordinary" human as any ordinary human is beyond Kanzi the bonobo or Koko the gorilla. Looking at exemplars of extreme performance proves what exactly about the "reality" of "race"?

Attempting to assign moral, athletic, or other qualities to some hypothetical "race" based on the performance of the best or worst "specimens" which we identify with that "race" is not only circular but a complete departure from any remotely scientific or statistical standard of rigor.


Given that all the names you quoted are males, there is certainly something different between the groups, in this case sex. No doubt there are many cultural factors at play as well. So you might understand why the classical musicians were all males, as were the artists, but oddly enough not the writers. Is this cultural or is there something about gender that makes you better at one thing or another.

To suggest that what we see at the extremes is not what we see as norms of a group is overly simplistic. Break up athletes by gender or age (as we do), and compare tham at every level of the sport and you see pattenrs based upon both age and sex. This does not mean that race operates the same way wrt , however dismissing elite performance in general as a way to compare groups is very naughty.

For Newton and Einstein and Jimi Hendrix and George Washington Carver and Richard Feynman and the Benin bronze masters and Charles Edenshaw and Leonardo da Vinci, please substitute in Marie Curie and Lisa Randall and Janis Joplin and Barbara McClintock and Jane Austen and Mary Cassat and Edwige Danticat and Jue Yao and Felice Bryant and ...

Please.
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Re: Is race real?

#614  Postby Steviepinhead » May 13, 2010 10:11 pm

aspire1670 wrote:
Delvo wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Aspire, look at you. NIce for a white guy!!!
Wait... how did you know he was white? :what:

:picard: :picard: :picard:

Irony can be difficult to detect throught the screen, but I'd be fairly sure that the "I" speaking of his winning performances was the guy pictured -- Valeri Borzov, a Ukranian sprinter who beat out black American sprinters to win the 200m at the 1972 Olympics for the USSR -- and not aspire:
Image
Assuming that Mr. Borzov was "ethnically" Unkranian, then it's pretty clear that his genetic heritage is a good deal more complex than could be covered by any simplistic "racial" grouping such as "white" or "European" or "Caucasian":
DNA tests of Y chromosomes from representative sample of Ukrainians were analyzed for composition and frequencies of haplogroups. In the Ukrainian gene, pool six haplogroups were revealed: E, F (including G and I), J, N3, P, and R1a1. The major haplogroup in the Ukrainian gene pool, Haplogroup R1a is thought to mark the migration patterns of the early Indo-Europeans and is associated with the distribution of the Kurgan archaeological culture. The second major haplogroup is haplogroup F, which is a combination of the lineages differing by the time of appearance. Haplogroup P found represents the genetic contribution of the population originating from the ancient autochthonous population of Europe. Haplogroup J and Haplogroup E mark the migration patterns of the Middle-Eastern agriculturists during the Neolithic. The presence of the N3 lineage is likely explained by a contribution of the assimilated Finno Ugric tribes.[22] A recent study (Rebala et al. 2007) studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland. A significant finding of this study is that according to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools, and this similarity can be traced to an origin in middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine.[23]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians
Apparently neither West African tribes nor their Caribbean-American descendants have a monopoly on fast-twitch muscle fibers.
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Re: Is race real?

#615  Postby pinkharrier » May 13, 2010 11:02 pm

It is frustrating dealing with self styled "anti-racists". They are disingenuous and smug, taking, as they do, the high moral ground (as defined by themselves).

I can't imagine what it would be like arguing with those who admired the Emperors new clothes but I suspect it would be similar to debate at this topic.
I'm a rational skeptic. Touch wood.
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Re: Is race real?

#616  Postby Steviepinhead » May 13, 2010 11:20 pm

I'm not considering you a "racist," pinkharrier.

So far you don't seem to have a coherent position on "race" at all, beyond insisting that at least some inheritable distinctions between subpopulations as identified by science are "real" (which none of us "anti-racists" have contested) and that some other correlations you have identified may possibly fall within these "real" differences.

Are you going to get around to answering the following question anytime soon?
You still haven't told me how a narrowly-defined physical skill, even if it should turn out to be traceable back to a given genetic basis that is "concentrated" in a small group of West African tribes, would validate the kind of overarching stereotypical categories that fall under the heading of -- not scientific study of heritable genetic differences and similarities -- but sociocultural "race" attributions ("black," "white," "African," "European," "Caucasian," "Nordic," etc.).

Then maybe we'll have something to work with...
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Re: Is race real?

#617  Postby pinkharrier » May 13, 2010 11:35 pm

Nope - but ask Jim Watson unless you know more than him.
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Re: Is race real?

#618  Postby Delvo » May 14, 2010 1:41 am

Steviepinhead wrote:Irony can be difficult to detect throught the screen, but I'd be fairly sure that the "I" speaking of his winning performances was the guy pictured -- Valeri Borzov, a Ukranian sprinter who beat out black American sprinters to win the 200m at the 1972 Olympics for the USSR -- and not aspire...
It doesn't really matter whether the racer and the person posting here are the same person or not, though. The point was that all that was available to go on was a picture, and the person in the picture was identified as white. How was that possible if it's the races can't be defined and there are no traits that are generally found in members of one race but not of another? If the race deniers' claims had any merit, identifying the race of a person in a picture would be impossible, so at least one of them just inadvertently admitted that (s)he can do what is supposed to be impossible, thus falsifying the race deniers' own claims and demonstrating that they can't seriously even buy such BS themselves.
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Re: Is race real?

#619  Postby aspire1670 » May 14, 2010 3:55 am

Delvo wrote:
Steviepinhead wrote:Irony can be difficult to detect throught the screen, but I'd be fairly sure that the "I" speaking of his winning performances was the guy pictured -- Valeri Borzov, a Ukranian sprinter who beat out black American sprinters to win the 200m at the 1972 Olympics for the USSR -- and not aspire...
It doesn't really matter whether the racer and the person posting here are the same person or not, though. The point was that all that was available to go on was a picture, and the person in the picture was identified as white. How was that possible if it's the races can't be defined and there are no traits that are generally found in members of one race but not of another? If the race deniers' claims had any merit, identifying the race of a person in a picture would be impossible, so at least one of them just inadvertently admitted that (s)he can do what is supposed to be impossible, thus falsifying the race deniers' own claims and demonstrating that they can't seriously even buy such BS themselves.

:picard: :picard: :picard: :picard: :picard: :picard:

You really don't get irony or correlation, Delvo. I am not Valery Borzov; the outcome of races is not determined by race; correlation is not causation.
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Re: Is race real?

#620  Postby Delvo » May 14, 2010 4:22 am

While you're busy coming up with more stuff to pretend I said that I didn't, maybe you could find a moment to also come up with an explanation for how a photograph's race was determined in a world where there supposedly are no racial traits with which to do such a thing...
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