Back to the Moon in Five Years?

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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#81  Postby felltoearth » Mar 31, 2019 4:44 pm

It seems the amount of carbon dioxide produced by the space program is a function of how hydrogen is produced. The cleaner your electricity, the cleaner the space program will be.

https://www.treehugger.com/renewable-en ... ogram.html
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#82  Postby tuco » Apr 03, 2019 6:33 am

The Lunar South Pole Is a Rich Target for NASA's 2024 Moon Goal

Landing at that site might help astronauts' long-term survival on the moon and could possibly lay the groundwork for boosting future teams farther out into the solar system.

"We have known that the poles of the moon were unique environments for some time," Noah Petro, a NASA lunar astronomer in Greenbelt, Maryland, told Space.com by email. Petro is a project scientist for NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) mission currently orbiting Earth's nearest neighbor. Observations from LRO and other spacecraft have confirmed that there's water ice hidden in craters at the lunar south pole. Polar water or ice could provide both air and fuel as well as water for astronauts to drink.

Related: The Search for Water on the Moon in Pictures

Exploring "the south pole, with the possibility of water and/or ice, has the added benefit of finding a resource for future use," Petro said.


https://www.space.com/nasa-moon-2024-lu ... tification
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#83  Postby tuco » Apr 04, 2019 6:49 am

NASA's Moon-by-2024 Push Could Help Put Astronauts on Mars by 2033, Chief Says

NASA was already planning to land astronauts on the moon in 2028 with the ultimate goal of going to Mars in the 2030s — until just last week, when Vice President Mike Pence announced new plans to have "boots on the moon" in 2024. Doing so would put NASA on track to land astronauts on Mars in 2033, Bridenstine said at the hearing. However, committee members expressed some doubt over the feasibility and necessity of that accelerated timeline.

"We want to achieve a Mars landing in 2033," Bridenstine said. "In order to do that, we have to accelerate other parts of the program, and the moon is a big piece of that."


[snip]

For contrast, NASA's overall budget at the height of the Apollo program in 1966 was $5.9 billion, which is about $46 billion today when adjusted for inflation. NASA estimated that the entire Apollo program, which lasted from 1960 to 1972 and successfully executed six lunar landings, cost a total of $220 billion, with inflation. That averages to about $37 billion per landing.

Bridenstine argued that Apollo-era funding levels won't be necessary to return to the moon in 2024, because "we have more capabilities right now," such as the miniaturization of electronics, reusable launch vehicles and commercial launch vehicles, he said during the hearing. "We have a lot of hardware that exists right now that didn't exist in 1961 and in 1962 when President Kennedy made his famous speeches."


https://www.space.com/nasa-moon-2024-la ... -2033.html

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Ok, lets go :)
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#84  Postby HopDavid » Apr 27, 2019 7:04 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Or some Orange turd pressing a certain button.


The Chixculub meteorite was thought to release the energy of 21 to 921 billion Hiroshima bombs, between 1.3e24 and 5.8e25 joules. See this Wikipedia article.

4.184 kilotons TNT is 4.184e12 joules. The Tsar Bomba was thought to be 50 megatons of TNT or about 2.4e17 joules.

It's estimated the U.S. currently has 4018 nuclear weapons in deployment or storage. If each of these we as powerful as the Tsar Bomba that'd be 9.7e20 joules. Which would be less than a thousandth of the lowest estimate of the Chisculub energy release.

TL:DR U.S. nuclear arsenal is only a small fraction of the destructive energy of Chixculub. Maybe a nuclear war would send civilization back to the bronze age. But it wouldn't be an extinction level event comparable to Chixculub.
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#85  Postby HopDavid » Apr 27, 2019 7:14 pm

Here is an essay Bridenstine wrote before he became NASA administrator. If more optimistic estimates of lunar cold trap volatiles are correct, lunar propellent mines could indeed confer a civil and military advantage to the entity that controls them.

Will Bridenstine accomplish much during the time he's administrator? As much as I want to see it, I don't expect much before 2020 or 2024.

However Pence and Bridenstine seem in favor of giving SpaceX and Blue Orgin more funding. Especially if the new kids on the block can deliver Heavy Lift Vehicles faster and cheaper than Boeing. For years NASA manned space flight has been a make work pork barrel project benefiting certain congressional districts (cough, cough) Shelby (/cough, cough). If they can restructure NASA spaceflight as a goal oriented program that rewards the best performers, then maybe something will happen. See this article by Eric Berger.
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#86  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 27, 2019 7:19 pm

aufbahrung wrote:The Earth is likely dead. I've not the statistics to back it up but the evidence of the sixth extinction and a collapsing biosphere is everywhere around on the web these days.


The glorious Anthropocene.


aufbahrung wrote: Amphibians are gone, insects are going and so forth.


Well, if nothing else comes from this thread, then at least you can gain some cheer from finding out that this is pretty far from true.

https://www.iucnredlist.org/

838 species of amphibians are endangered: that's about 13% of all amphibian species.
343 species of insect are endangered: that's about 5.7% of all insect species.


aufbahrung wrote: The technology we develop to live on Mars can be retro-engineered to allow our survival here on Earth after it becomes completely inhospitable to biological life. You know it makes sense. And is the only way. Mars deal or no deal.


I am not sure it would even be within our reach if we set out to purposefully make the planet inhospitable to all biological life. Life just finds a way.

We're undoubtedly in a stupidly self-harming position, but it's not Armageddon.
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#87  Postby Macdoc » Apr 27, 2019 7:55 pm

Even a nuclear paveover would not reach the microbes kilometers into the crust.

The dino-killer was far more powerful than anything puny humans can put up.

Extinctions occur all the time - life is very resilient but we are harming our biomes by dinging diversity yet rewilding is occurring as populations move urban and some stupid policies like bounties are eliminated.

I am concerned about the oceans ...and notably the barrier reef on my doorstep but yeah - it's glory may be dimmed but it ain't going away in it's entirety.

I see sea level rise as an opportunity to re-engineer over half the cities to be more sustainable and ecologically sound. Venice and New Orleans will be scuba diving destinations :D :coffee:
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#88  Postby tuco » Apr 27, 2019 8:01 pm

You are all reported for off-topic. Cool? So cool.
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#89  Postby tuco » Apr 30, 2019 11:28 am

Lunar Base and Gateway Part of Sustainable Long-Term Human Exploration Plan

WASHINGTON — As NASA works to develop a plan for an accelerated human return to the moon, a top White House official emphasized the need for long-term sustainability that will require both a Gateway and a lunar base.

[snip]

Pace confirmed in his presentation that the lunar Gateway would be relatively small in its initial version. "I would expect to see a very minimal Gateway initially, in terms of supporting what we need for 2024. I see a larger, more capable Gateway building out as we go towards reusability."

He said the Gateway's value may ultimately be as a "fuel depot," allowing for lunar landers, or at least some portions of them, to be reused. "Instead of abandoning expensive vehicles after a single trip, we should contemplate creating a fuel depot to enable repeated visits to the moon and pave the way to Mars," he said, "and that's exactly what NASA has proposed with the lunar Gateway."

[snip]

One of the key factors for that interest in the south pole is the potential access to deposits of water ice that can be used for life support and as propellant. He cautioned, though, that the nature and accessibility of that ice is uncertain, requiring research to determine if it's feasible to use any ice that exists there.

The base can also support other research there. "We're going to be going for lots of reasons, of which science is but one," he said, "but on the other hand, we want to make sure what science we do there is, in fact, driven by community assessments."


This story was provided by SpaceNews, dedicated to covering all aspects of the space industry.

https://www.space.com/lunar-base-gatewa ... -plan.html

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strategy of speed leading towards sustainability .. I like that, unlike .. pissing contest.
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#90  Postby tuco » May 07, 2019 6:30 pm

Pence Reaffirms Trump Administration's Support for Space
But there were no new announcements.

[snip]

Pence used the speech to reiterate civil and national security space initiatives, such as the administration’s proposal to establish a Space Force and the goal that Pence announced in a March 26 speech of a human lunar landing by 2024. He did not, though, add new details about either initiative in his conference remarks.

Pence was introduced by Tory Bruno, president and chief executive of United Launch Alliance who also serves on the National Space Council’s Users’ Advisory Group. Bruno, in his remarks, praised Pence for his work as chairman of the space council.

"We are gifted with visionary and determined leadership," Bruno said of Pence and his work on the council. "It has streamlined processes. It has crushed bureaucracy. It has significantly enabled commercialization of space. And, it is leveraging public and private partnerships in order to get the best of both worlds to meet this great challenge."


https://www.space.com/mike-pence-reaffi ... pport.html

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No comment here because I dunno, nor care about, the US politics.
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#91  Postby laklak » May 07, 2019 7:41 pm

MMAA! Make the Moon American Again!
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#92  Postby BlackBart » May 07, 2019 7:57 pm

I thought it was an autonomous collective.
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#93  Postby laklak » May 07, 2019 8:12 pm

MMBA. Make the Moon Borg Again!
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#94  Postby GrahamH » May 07, 2019 8:13 pm

tuco wrote:This just popped out on me

Can NASA Really Put Astronauts on the Moon in 2024?

NASA can probably meet the Trump administration's aggressive moon-landing timeline, experts say — but it won't be easy.

https://www.space.com/nasa-astronauts-m ... ility.html



We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.


No doubt a moon landing is easier now than it was then although the political will and the leadership may be lacking.

But China is doing it and the rest of the world can't leave the Moon to China. I wouldn't call that a "pissing contest". More of a strategic balance.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#95  Postby tuco » May 07, 2019 8:18 pm

ok
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#96  Postby tuco » May 10, 2019 4:01 pm

Seeing how this thread goes I have high doubts that updating it is worth the time and energy, however, maybe the mythical reader differs from actual posters and cares about the topic ~ landing on Moon, unlike scoring imaginary points.

---
Blue Origin Unveils 'Blue Moon,' Its Big Lunar Lander
"Blue Moon" could take astronauts to the moon in 2024.

While Bezos did not explicitly state that Blue Origin plans to offer its new vehicle to NASA for the agency's ambitious push to land American astronauts on the moon in 2024, a newly posted description on the company's website states that the crew-carrying variant of Blue Moon "has been designed to land an ascent vehicle that will allow us to return Americans to the moon by 2024."


https://www.space.com/blue-origin-revea ... ander.html

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So back to viability. There is political will, this means money and cutting bureaucracy, there is lander, what else? Is there a rocket? What else is needed?
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#97  Postby GrahamH » May 10, 2019 7:02 pm

Why do you think that?
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#98  Postby tuco » May 13, 2019 6:02 pm

Bit old news but with some new info.

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NASA Outlines Plan for 2024 Moon Landing

The approach, as he described, would require three launches of the Space Launch System heavy-lift rocket and Orion spacecraft, starting with the uncrewed Exploration Mission (EM) 1 mission already in development.


NASA, meanwhile, would be working on other elements of the lunar landing architecture. The agency announced April 26 it was modifying an upcoming broad agency announcement that is part of its Next Space Technologies for Exploration Partnerships program that will now seek proposals for integrated lunar lander concepts. "Now we're asking for a service of ascent, descent and transfer [stages], essentially an all-in-one service for landing," he said.

That is a shift from earlier plans, which called for procuring the stages separately and having NASA integrate them. "We thought that might be slower, and if we gave accountability for all that to one entity, they could make those trades," he said, such as approaches that would require only two stages. NASA might support multiple companies through at least part of the development effort "so we have the ability that, if one gets in trouble, the other one will be there."


Gerstenmaier said that the approach for a human lunar landing in 2024 is minimalistic. "I would say, for the initial 2024 landing, it's going to be pretty Spartan," he said when asked about the development of spacesuits for lunar excursions.


That budget amendment "is still very much in flux," Whitley said, but didn't discuss when it's likely to be complete or how much additional funding it's likely to request.

"It's still within the administration," James Reuter, NASA associate administrator for space technology, said of the revised budget in an April 30 presentation to the NASA Advisory Council's technology committee. He said he didn't expect much in the way of new details about the revised budget when Bridenstine testifies before a Senate appropriations subcommittee May 1.

"Shortly after that is the target to get it over," he said of delivering that amended budget to Congress. "It's recognized, to make 2024, there needs to be more budget, substantially more budget."


https://www.space.com/nasa-2024-moon-landing-plan.html

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I also believe there is new content on NASA website with regards to Moon lanindg:

https://www.nasa.gov/specials/moon2mars/

Including this poster. What was the artist thinking? Perhaps something like .. we are not gonna let you die this time? Anyway, so cool.
Attachments
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#99  Postby tuco » May 15, 2019 6:41 pm

NASA Names New Moon Landing Program Artemis After Apollo's Sister

Artemis was also selected by a team competing for NASA's Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) contract. The team, led by Draper, named their proposed lunar lander Artemis-7 in honor of the Greek goddess. (The number 7 signified Draper's seventh lunar landing, having a heritage in Apollo.)

The name has also been used for a European communications satellite (retired in 2017) and was the fictional title given to the first city on the moon in author Andy Weir's ("The Martian") 2017 science fiction novel "Artemis." There is also a small crater with the name in Mare Imbrium, or the Sea of Showers, on the moon.

Bridenstine said the name Artemis represents the program's goal of inclusion.

"I have a daughter who is 11 years old, and I want her to be able to see herself in the same role as the next women [who] go to the moon see themselves in today," he said. "This is really a beautiful moment in American history, and I am very proud to be a part of it."


https://www.space.com/nasa-names-moon-l ... temis.html

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What else is needed?


Name :)
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Re: Back to the Moon in Five Years?

#100  Postby Svartalf » May 15, 2019 6:47 pm

and the next two programs will be Zeus and Leto after their parents...
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