No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#81  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 30, 2015 7:08 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Thus, it is more reasonable to expect that if we ever detect aliens they will be an interplanetary civilization rather than a bunch of clods sitting on a rock. It's not necessarily because clod-sitters don't happen. It's because clod-sitters probably don't happen long enough for us to be likely to meet them.


This problem is somewhat magnified by the fact that we are also a bunch of clods sitting on a rock! :)

But we haven't yet collectively decided if that's the way we want to remain. By my reasoning, we increase how long our species gets to stick around as well as increasing our likelihood of meeting any aliens- if there are any aliens- if some of us jump off this rock. Unfortunately, most humans haven't yet come around to the understanding that doing as I say is in their best interests. Given that values are relative, I suppose my sci-fi fantasy may have to take a back seat to bling and sports super-stardom if that's the way more people want to go. :dunno:


Personally, I think it's our Prime Directive. I wish we could do this as a species - fuck borders and nationalities - this is something we can only do together!

I'm a Saganite when it comes to this! :)
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#82  Postby crank » Sep 30, 2015 7:22 pm

The simple fact is, even without global warming, we were not on a sustainable path. WIthout a vast reduction in population, the potential for a bright future is pretty unlikely. With global warming, will we have enough time to adjust the population before survivability itself becomes doubtful?
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#83  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Sep 30, 2015 7:31 pm

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:

<I've snipped out a bunch of stuff. I will be addressing a few of your points, but I will also be attempting in this post to disambiguate our disagreement. It feels like we may be arguing past one another on a few particulars and I'd like to verify if this is so.>

Addressing points:
  • can manage to create robust and self-sustaining space colonies to begin with (imagine, for example, how incredibly fragile and dependent a pioneer colony on Mars would be);
  • doesn't destroy itself in the process of reaching a space-faring level of technology (we humans seem to be well on our way to meeting this fate);
  • doesn't destroy itself after having reached a space-faring level of technology (e.g. inadvertently triggering a supernova after an attempt to directly harness the power of a star goes awry);
  • doesn't succumb to some kind of interstellar super-plague as a result of its colonization efforts;
  • manages to evade detection by advanced genocidal ETs who might perceive other space-faring lifeforms as an intolerable existential threat; and
  • doesn't evolve into other species as a result of space colonization (in which case we have to ask whether that species has really given itself a hedge against extinction).

These are all pretty much selection events. :dunno:

The supernova one is just silly. If a species had gotten to the point where they had the resources and expertise necessary to mine a star, there's no reason to expect them to biff it that badly. Of course, I'm a little confused as to why one would mine a star for energy when they radiate so much for free, but, yeah, really, this is silly enough that it's not worth poking holes in.

Speciation is pretty much guaranteed once colonization beyond solar systems happens. It's just not feasible to do any substantial mixing of gene pools over those distances. But I don't see that as an objection to interstellar civilizations. There is no reason a civilization cannot be composed of multiple related- or unrelated- species. It would probably work better if they were related.

However, in the nearer term there are formidable nearer-term selective pressures against space colonization (e.g. the total lack of a breathable atmosphere anywhere else in the known universe;

Er.... what? How can you justify this claim when we haven't gotten around to checking most of the known universe for breathable atmospheres?
the inherent cultural and political instability of human societies).

Political and cultural instability is why I favor one-shot colonization over long-term SETI-style missions. It's a lot easier to keep a group of us on track long enough to launch something big and exciting than it is to keep us on track long enough to be heard or to hear extraterrestrials with our modern equivalent of strings and tin cans. Also, there are non-ET-specific reasons to want to colonize other worlds, but that isn't the case for SETI-style stuff. If the colony works (and there's no guarantee that it will) you've established a new culture based upon space colonization. But, yeah, it's all just a shot in the dark. I'm only ever talking probabilities. It's all we have pending more real information.
All previous human experience of colonization has involved the colonization of places that already had bountiful complex ecosystems and - in many cases - helpful indigenous people. Without the first factor, human colonization of new lands would have been a non-starter right from the get-go; without the second factor, human colonization in more recent times would have been much more difficult and probably far less successful. Absent these two factors, space colonization is so different - both in terms of quality and degree of difficulty - from colonization as we know it, that it hardly makes sense to even call it "colonization".

Nope. "Colonization" is exactly what it is, in the purest sense of the term. And, in principle, it's pretty much the same. All that changes is the magnitude of the endeavor.

__Now for some disambiguation__

The basic issues:

1) Are there other life-bearing worlds?
2) What is the probability of intelligence evolving on those worlds?
3) Where are all the ETs?

Given issue (1) I believe we may be in disagreement. I am comfortable with the idea that there may be other life-bearing worlds. We've observed enough precursor molecules in space that it's even reasonable to assume that extraterrestrial life could use many of the same amino acids with the same chirality as ours. Whether that is actually true remains to be seen. All it would take is a planet of sufficient composition at a sufficient orbital distance from a star for life to happen. How do I know? Because it happened here.

Regarding issue (2) we may be closer to agreement. I believe we are both dissatisfied with the relatively optimistic assessment of how likely intelligence is given an ecosystem. I also suspect that our dissatisfaction may be divergent when it comes to specifics. My own reasoning hinges on my pet hypothesis that human intelligence is largely the result of runaway sexual selection, which would make intelligence like ours quite a bit less likely than if it were a result of less specific selection pressures. That, and issue (3).

Regarding issue (3) we may be really quite close to agreement indeed, but still differ on the specifics. I feel pretty comfortable stating that the fact that we haven't been contacted by ETs is indicative that there aren't any around. Also, with my particular sort of reasoning, the vastness of space isn't as big a factor in terms of why there aren't any ETs around. If conditions in the universe select for colonizers, then, given enough colonizers, we should expect to wind up with at least one really successful group of colonizing species which will eventually get around to colonizing in our neighborhood regardless of where in the galaxy they started out. And there's no reason not to expect that a really, really successful group of colonizing species won't just spread back and forth through the galaxy, evolving and speciating for as long as there are habitable worlds, and that this sort of thing can go on without any sort of central planning or coordination. I'll not go so far with intergalactic distances. That's vastness that boggles my mind sufficiently that I'm inclined to leave it alone.

As far as SETI-style contact, I'm really dissatisfied with it for a number of reasons, but I can collapse those reasons down to a nice, simple umbrella objection: It presupposes aliens which are too much like us, or perhaps like better versions of us. I prefer to leave a lot of room for the possibility that aliens are more alien than that.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#84  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Sep 30, 2015 7:35 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Personally, I think it's our Prime Directive. I wish we could do this as a species - fuck borders and nationalities - this is something we can only do together!

I'm a Saganite when it comes to this! :)

:thumbup: I'm all for making our own alien species.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#85  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 30, 2015 7:54 pm

crank wrote:The simple fact is, even without global warming, we were not on a sustainable path. WIthout a vast reduction in population, the potential for a bright future is pretty unlikely. With global warming, will we have enough time to adjust the population before survivability itself becomes doubtful?



Fortunately, the rate at which the world's population increase is declining rapidly. Most Western countries will fail to reproduce their current numbers in the next generation. Plus, there are trends all across the developing world showing precisely the same peak and predicted tail off.

Of course, even present population is a problem, but mostly because of our absurd consumption and acquisitiveness. With the vast populations of emerging nations soon to come onto the world market, that's going to strip mine vast tracts of the world.

For me, it's the atmosphere which is the most pressing concern. We're going to run into all manner of serious, but ultimately minor speed-bumps from other sources, but fuck up that thin blue line, and we're toast. And we're going to take down much of the rest of it with us!

This is why we need some eggs in other baskets, and why we really need to be working on it now. It's well within our technological know-how - has been for decades - but finding the political will in the uneducated and apathetic is the most pressing need. Edumakashun.... that's what we need, and plenty of it! :)
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#86  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Oct 01, 2015 4:59 am

The_Piper wrote:The Americas were colonized by human beings without any indigenous people being present. :)



Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:All previous human experience of colonization has involved the colonization of places that already had bountiful complex ecosystems and - in many cases - helpful indigenous people. Without the first factor, human colonization of new lands would have been a non-starter right from the get-go
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#87  Postby hackenslash » Oct 01, 2015 8:10 am

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:My question was how do you determine that one organism is "better" adapted than another, except in retrospect?


Fuck me, are you really so far behind the curve in terms of your scientific understanding as this idiotic question would suggest? Fisher put fitness into a quantitative framework decades ago. I suspect you have some catching up to do.

In other words I'm asking whether natural selection has any predictive power as a scientific hypothesis, or is it an exercise in post hoc rationalization?


That’s a different question entirely, but the answer is still ‘yes, it does have predictive power’. Indeed, one of the very first predictions was made by Darwin himself, and vindicated shortly thereafter. Darwin received some specimens of orchids in 1862, among which was one specimen, Angraecum sesquipedale, which has a nectary about a foot long. On the basis of natural selection, Darwin predicted the existence of a species of moth whose proboscis was long enough to get to the end of the nectary spur. Alfred Russell Wallace discovered said species, namely Xanthopan morgana, in 1867.

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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#88  Postby crank » Oct 01, 2015 12:34 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
crank wrote:The simple fact is, even without global warming, we were not on a sustainable path. WIthout a vast reduction in population, the potential for a bright future is pretty unlikely. With global warming, will we have enough time to adjust the population before survivability itself becomes doubtful?



Fortunately, the rate at which the world's population increase is declining rapidly. Most Western countries will fail to reproduce their current numbers in the next generation. Plus, there are trends all across the developing world showing precisely the same peak and predicted tail off.

Of course, even present population is a problem, but mostly because of our absurd consumption and acquisitiveness. With the vast populations of emerging nations soon to come onto the world market, that's going to strip mine vast tracts of the world.

For me, it's the atmosphere which is the most pressing concern. We're going to run into all manner of serious, but ultimately minor speed-bumps from other sources, but fuck up that thin blue line, and we're toast. And we're going to take down much of the rest of it with us!

This is why we need some eggs in other baskets, and why we really need to be working on it now. It's well within our technological know-how - has been for decades - but finding the political will in the uneducated and apathetic is the most pressing need. Edumakashun.... that's what we need, and plenty of it! :)

I'm less optimistic than you. I think we're way past the sustainable population now. There are serious water issues in a number of places, there are substantial numbers of fish species that are seriously depleted. I know about the population growth rate declines, that's why I mentioned the time constraints of approaching climate change and declining population. The earth at higher temps is going to be dicey for farming, especially for water, and will sustain less mouths, so timing may be crucial.

If we want to travel to the stars, we could just about do it now. I don't know why more people don't think of this, but a hollowed out asteroid could hold a huge population of travellers, an ion drive or abomb powered propulsion could take us far, but not that fast. It could be spun for gravity. And using fairly good sized asteroids, they could provide a lot of collision and radiation protection.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#89  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 01, 2015 1:24 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:DavidMcC's new bugbear - Sim-worlders!

Not really. It was crank who started talking about simworlds, not me. I just think it is absurd to suggest that we are all in a simworld.

EDIT: If crank doesn't go all off-topic, I won't have to chase him about it.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#90  Postby crank » Oct 01, 2015 2:30 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:DavidMcC's new bugbear - Sim-worlders!

Not really. It was crank who started talking about simworlds, not me. I just think it is absurd to suggest that we are all in a simworld.

EDIT: If crank doesn't go all off-topic, I won't have to chase him about it.

Chasing me about it? What does that even mean? You keep implying that I think we are in one even though I've repeatedly said I mentioned it only as a possibility. And that is the context in which I brought it up, as one scenario left out of an intended exhaustive list. And you still haven't attempted to justify your position on this, only repeat repeatedly that it's absurd.

The idea itself, as I was discussing it, is not off-topic, for reasons I already gave, not the least of which is that I started the damn thread!

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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#91  Postby hackenslash » Oct 01, 2015 4:37 pm

crank wrote:You keep implying that I think we are in one even though I've repeatedly said I mentioned it only as a possibility.


Called it on page 2. We've been here before with FTL, a topic in which anybody who doesn't immediately villify the merest suggestion of any possible framework that might allow for it (like, oh, I don't know, General Relativity) is immediately labelled a trekkie and dismissed. It's Dave's very own version of the twin fallacies of poisoning the well and the genetic fallacy.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#92  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Oct 02, 2015 12:18 am

ScholasticSpastic wrote:

The supernova one is just silly. If a species had gotten to the point where they had the resources and expertise necessary to mine a star, there's no reason to expect them to biff it that badly. Of course, I'm a little confused as to why one would mine a star for energy when they radiate so much for free, but, yeah, really, this is silly enough that it's not worth poking holes in.


I admit that it's a far-fetched hypothetical example. But the idea of colonizing the galaxy is pretty far-fetched as well. Anyway, the specific example was not my point. The points I was trying to make with this example are: 1) there are unknown unknowns when it comes to the risks of space colonization; 2) there is no reason to think that a space-faring level of technology would be any less of a double-edged sword than our own level of technology; and 3) a high level of technology is not necessarily a safeguard against hubris, nearsightedness and other follies of human nature.

Speciation is pretty much guaranteed once colonization beyond solar systems happens. It's just not feasible to do any substantial mixing of gene pools over those distances. But I don't see that as an objection to interstellar civilizations. There is no reason a civilization cannot be composed of multiple related- or unrelated- species. It would probably work better if they were related.


Yes that one was a bit of a long bow to draw. But it does raise some interesting questions. Would we really be preserving our own species, or simply ensuring the existence of some future unknown species that might descend from and supplant us? Does that even matter? And why would a highly intelligent species capable of space-faring content itself with being locked into "the struggle for existence" rather than seeking a way to get beyond that struggle once and for all?

However, in the nearer term there are formidable nearer-term selective pressures against space colonization (e.g. the total lack of a breathable atmosphere anywhere else in the known universe;

Er.... what? How can you justify this claim when we haven't gotten around to checking most of the known universe for breathable atmospheres?


Number of other planets in our solar system with breathable atmospheres: 0
Number of other moons and asteroids in our solar system with breathable atmospheres: 0
Number of extra-solar planets believed to have breathable atmospheres (last time I checked): 0
Amount of breathable atmosphere present in the immensity of outer space: 0


Political and cultural instability is why I favor one-shot colonization over long-term SETI-style missions. It's a lot easier to keep a group of us on track long enough to launch something big and exciting than it is to keep us on track long enough to be heard or to hear extraterrestrials with our modern equivalent of strings and tin cans. Also, there are non-ET-specific reasons to want to colonize other worlds, but that isn't the case for SETI-style stuff. If the colony works (and there's no guarantee that it will) you've established a new culture based upon space colonization. But, yeah, it's all just a shot in the dark. I'm only ever talking probabilities. It's all we have pending more real information.


Even if it were technically feasible, a one-shot colonization effort would take a considerable amount of time, money and effort to prepare. In the 1950's and 1960's the Soviets were trail-blazers when it came to big firsts in space. Thirty years later the Soviet Union collapsed after a prolonged period of economic decline. Now you might say that the Soviets fell victim to their severely flawed economic system, but that doesn't change the fact that capitalist economies are dominated by considerations of profitability and time value of money. Nor does it change the fact that the global champion of capitalism has drastically scaled back its space-going capabilities over the last 40 years.

I've italicized part of what you said in the above quote, because I think it really deserves emphasis. There is about as much of a guarantee that it will work as there is that a rat will survive a journey from Tonga to Hawaii on a hulk of floating natural debris.

All previous human experience of colonization has involved the colonization of places that already had bountiful complex ecosystems and - in many cases - helpful indigenous people. Without the first factor, human colonization of new lands would have been a non-starter right from the get-go; without the second factor, human colonization in more recent times would have been much more difficult and probably far less successful. Absent these two factors, space colonization is so different - both in terms of quality and degree of difficulty - from colonization as we know it, that it hardly makes sense to even call it "colonization".

Nope. "Colonization" is exactly what it is, in the purest sense of the term. And, in principle, it's pretty much the same. All that changes is the magnitude of the endeavor.


Really?? In principle it's "pretty much the same" to colonize a place with:
  • no breathable atmosphere;
  • no magnetic field;
  • no natural fresh-water sources;
  • no aboriginals to help you out when times gets tough;
  • no biosphere to speak of; and
  • no way of retreating to and/or readily acquiring aid from the homeland

...as it is to colonize a place with most or all of those things??


The basic issues:

1) Are there other life-bearing worlds?
2) What is the probability of intelligence evolving on those worlds?
3) Where are all the ETs?

Given issue (1) I believe we may be in disagreement. I am comfortable with the idea that there may be other life-bearing worlds. We've observed enough precursor molecules in space that it's even reasonable to assume that extraterrestrial life could use many of the same amino acids with the same chirality as ours. Whether that is actually true remains to be seen. All it would take is a planet of sufficient composition at a sufficient orbital distance from a star for life to happen. How do I know? Because it happened here.


There might be life-bearing worlds out there, but even if there are then that raises other issues. Is it ethical to colonize other life-bearing worlds? Is it safe for us to try?

Regarding issue (2) we may be closer to agreement. I believe we are both dissatisfied with the relatively optimistic assessment of how likely intelligence is given an ecosystem. I also suspect that our dissatisfaction may be divergent when it comes to specifics. My own reasoning hinges on my pet hypothesis that human intelligence is largely the result of runaway sexual selection, which would make intelligence like ours quite a bit less likely than if it were a result of less specific selection pressures.


Sexual selection may well have something to do with it. But imo there are probably so many factors involved and intertwined with one and other that it only makes sense to talk about "selection pressures" in the most superficial of senses.

As far as SETI-style contact, I'm really dissatisfied with it for a number of reasons, but I can collapse those reasons down to a nice, simple umbrella objection: It presupposes aliens which are too much like us, or perhaps like better versions of us.


And contact by space-colonization doesn't also presuppose this?
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#93  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Oct 02, 2015 12:20 am

crank wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
crank wrote:There are tons of predictions made by scientist based on natural selection, I can't think of any,


Neither can I. Sure, natural selection might be an assumption underlying many scientific experiments and predictions, but this is not the same thing as actually testing the predictive power of (the concept of) natural selection itself. In other words, natural selection appears to be an expedient - if tautological - postulate rather than a truly scientific (i.e. falsifiable) hypothesis.


Am I missing something here? There are all kinds of predictions relying on natural selection that routinely get confirmed. There is one I read about a while back, with dark and light versions of some desert rodent, and the relative populations of each depending on whether they lived on dark rocks or light sand. And I then all kinds of microbe testing where many generations can be observed. These tests are so common I can only assume I'm missing something you would say makes these not tests of natural selection.


Well if you can provide links to information about those desert rodent and microbe studies, then please do so.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#94  Postby crank » Oct 02, 2015 2:51 am

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
crank wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
crank wrote:There are tons of predictions made by scientist based on natural selection, I can't think of any,


Neither can I. Sure, natural selection might be an assumption underlying many scientific experiments and predictions, but this is not the same thing as actually testing the predictive power of (the concept of) natural selection itself. In other words, natural selection appears to be an expedient - if tautological - postulate rather than a truly scientific (i.e. falsifiable) hypothesis.


Am I missing something here? There are all kinds of predictions relying on natural selection that routinely get confirmed. There is one I read about a while back, with dark and light versions of some desert rodent, and the relative populations of each depending on whether they lived on dark rocks or light sand. And I then all kinds of microbe testing where many generations can be observed. These tests are so common I can only assume I'm missing something you would say makes these not tests of natural selection.


Well if you can provide links to information about those desert rodent and microbe studies, then please do so.

The rodents I read about somewhere 2 or 3 years ago I think, but the microbe studies, and all kinds of other shit like that is ubiquitous, pick up a few Scientific Americans, or New Scientists, or a fricking Biology intro textbook, to not be familiar with this means it isn't a subject you've had the slightest interest in before. Why start now? Did you see Hacks input? Did you not hear about Shubin and his 4 legged fish? Every gap in the fossil record is a prediction.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#95  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Oct 02, 2015 4:12 am

crank wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Well if you can provide links to information about those desert rodent and microbe studies, then please do so.

The rodents I read about somewhere 2 or 3 years ago I think, but the microbe studies, and all kinds of other shit like that is ubiquitous, pick up a few Scientific Americans, or New Scientists, or a fricking Biology intro textbook, to not be familiar with this means it isn't a subject you've had the slightest interest in before. Why start now? Did you see Hacks input? Did you not hear about Shubin and his 4 legged fish? Every gap in the fossil record is a prediction.


So I take it that you can't provide any substantiation of your claims re: the desert rodent and microbe studies?

And by the way, I make the effort to talk to you in a courteous and civil manner, so I would appreciate it if you could return the favor. Certain others around her might comport themselves in the manner of a 14-year-old with a personality disorder, but that doesn't mean you have to.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#96  Postby crank » Oct 02, 2015 4:35 am

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
crank wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Well if you can provide links to information about those desert rodent and microbe studies, then please do so.

The rodents I read about somewhere 2 or 3 years ago I think, but the microbe studies, and all kinds of other shit like that is ubiquitous, pick up a few Scientific Americans, or New Scientists, or a fricking Biology intro textbook, to not be familiar with this means it isn't a subject you've had the slightest interest in before. Why start now? Did you see Hacks input? Did you not hear about Shubin and his 4 legged fish? Every gap in the fossil record is a prediction.


So I take it that you can't provide any substantiation of your claims re: the desert rodent and microbe studies?

And by the way, I make the effort to talk to you in a courteous and civil manner, so I would appreciate it if you could return the favor. Certain others around her might comport themselves in the manner of a 14-year-old with a personality disorder, but that doesn't mean you have to.

Oh grow the fuck up, there wasn't anything rude in my response, it's exasperation. You're almost asking that someone document their assertion that weathermen give predictions of the weather. I only have so much time in a day, the fact that what you are asking for is so common, widely known, widely discussed, means if you tried the tiniest little bit, you could find it yourself. That you keep asking when I tell you that every gap in the fossil record is a prediction, means you haven't thought at all deeply about the matter, so why should I bother to find documentation that you clearly will not be capable of understanding?
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#97  Postby crank » Oct 02, 2015 4:45 am

This took me a couple of seconds, one and a half millions results, get back with me when you've gone through all of them
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#98  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Oct 02, 2015 4:53 am

crank wrote:
Oh grow the fuck up


Real charming, son.

there wasn't anything rude in my response


Not as rude as that delightful gem you opened your subsequent post with.


You're almost asking that someone document their assertion that weathermen give predictions of the weather.


No I'm not. But at least you admit that it is an assertion.

I only have so much time in a day


I guess time does get away from you when you're busy telling random people on the internet to "grow the fuck up"...

the fact that what you are asking for is so common, widely known, widely discussed, means if you tried the tiniest little bit, you could find it yourself.


Then why can't you take 90 seconds out of your busy, busy schedule and provide one of the many, many links to this information which you claim is so abundantly available?

That you keep asking when I tell you that every gap in the fossil record is a prediction, means you haven't thought at all deeply about the matter, so why should I bother to find documentation that you clearly will not be capable of understanding?


I never asked about gaps in the fossil record, so you can drop that red herring. I asked about the studies you insist are so well known and accessible. The ones about desert rodents and microbes. I smell an evasion...
Last edited by Ven. Kwan Tam Woo on Oct 02, 2015 4:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#99  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Oct 02, 2015 4:55 am

crank wrote:This took me a couple of seconds, one and a half millions results, get back with me when you've gone through all of them


Oh so you can make time in your busy schedule! But I didn't ask for a print screen of a Google search, I specifically asked for links to information about the desert rodent and microbe studies that you mentioned earlier.Can you provide these links or not?
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Re: No nearby advanced civilizations, astronomer says

#100  Postby hackenslash » Oct 02, 2015 4:56 am

Whine, whine, whine.All you have is whining about tone and the kind of grasp of science that my children would have been ashamed of at 10 years old. The case is made. That you're too butthurt to deal with it is nobody's problem but yours.

In short, you're wrong. Move on.
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