Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

Possibly Earthlike into the bargain ...

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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#21  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 27, 2016 10:13 pm

tuco wrote:Of course its not, technically, adhom and of course you did not get to actual argument because you concluded he is crank. Instead you wrote 4 paragraphs about nothing.

Tell me where the Xenology Research Institute is, tuco.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#22  Postby tuco » Aug 27, 2016 10:58 pm

I do not care about Xenology institute as its irrelevant to the topic and the so-called Fermi paradox in question.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#23  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 28, 2016 1:55 am

tuco wrote:I do not care about Xenology institute as its irrelevant to the topic and the so-called Fermi paradox in question.

It's relevant because it doesn't exist. The guy says he belongs to a fictitious institute. This tells me, as he's lied or at best misrepresented his qualifications, that I should be wary of whatever else he says. This is not an ad hominem argument because the lie comes at the beginning of the the fellow's claim. It would be an ad hominem argument if I said, "Hey, this guy said somewhere else that he's a member of an institute that doesn't exist, so I'm going to say that this unrelated claim he makes should be ignored." When the lie is contained within the very claim that's under consideration, you bet your ass that should be taken into account while considering the claim.

It's the same as if someone came up to you and said, "the sky consists primarily of mustard" and then someone else got mad at you because you wrote them off as a crazy person and ignored their follow-up statement about the natural mellowing agents in ketchup.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#24  Postby tuco » Aug 28, 2016 2:05 am

Look, you mentioned Fermi paradox:

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Arnold Layne wrote:Why don't they come to us? :thumbup:

It's a very long journey. Maybe they were already here and moved on because our environment was hostile to them. Maybe they're on their way and they'll be here in a couple of centuries. Maybe they aren't there to come to us.

In Liu Cixin's novels it takes the aliens four centuries to get here from a technologically advanced start. Their probes get here a lot faster, but I also quite like his solution for Fermi's Paradox, which explains why the aliens are hostile. And why all the aliens are hostile. And why we are hostile.

If you haven't read Liu Cixin's Three Body Problem I recommend that you do. It's very Chinese, and very good science fiction. I can't read the original, but I understand that his translator's pretty awesome, too.


and since I think that if I, for example not Fermi, formulated it, it would be up basically for laughs as its not a paradox really but a trivial question, I posted argument indicating my position. This is what I care about. The so-called Fermi paradox and arguments doubting it. Anything else are details I am not interested in.

Where are they? Mr Fermi. I could formulate the same thing after 2 bottles of wine simply because there is nothing exceptional about it but basic(?) knowledge of the universe as we know it, and you would probably say .. cool story bro. That's it. Its Fermi paradox because Fermi said it, not because its paradox or a great mystery.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#25  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 28, 2016 2:19 am

tuco wrote:Look, you mentioned Fermi paradox:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Arnold Layne wrote:Why don't they come to us? :thumbup:

It's a very long journey. Maybe they were already here and moved on because our environment was hostile to them. Maybe they're on their way and they'll be here in a couple of centuries. Maybe they aren't there to come to us.

In Liu Cixin's novels it takes the aliens four centuries to get here from a technologically advanced start. Their probes get here a lot faster, but I also quite like his solution for Fermi's Paradox, which explains why the aliens are hostile. And why all the aliens are hostile. And why we are hostile.

If you haven't read Liu Cixin's Three Body Problem I recommend that you do. It's very Chinese, and very good science fiction. I can't read the original, but I understand that his translator's pretty awesome, too.


and since I think that if I, for example not Fermi, formulated it, it would be up basically for laughs as its not a paradox really but a trivial question, I posted argument indicating my position. This is what I care about. The so-called Fermi paradox and arguments doubting it. Anything else are details I am not interested in.

I don't think you understood what I was saying at all. There are a lot of possible solutions to the Fermi paradox- and yes, some of them are trivial. I brought up the Fermi paradox ONLY because I though that Liu Cixin's answer to it was poetic. I wasn't trying to assert it as some sort of rule, or demand answers to it, or whatever.

If you agree with something about Mr. Freitas's response to the Fermi paradox, this probably isn't the thread for that, but, hey, I'm happy to talk about it. Pull specific points out, quote them, say why you agree with them, and we'll talk about them. But I'm not going to read something that starts with a lie without a good reason for doing so. I would very much enjoy reading what you think of Mr. Freitas's ideas. But I choose not to read through his stuff simply because he talked about the same thing I was talking about and he's made up some rather impressive-sounding credentials for himself even though there was no fucking need because his real credentials should be impressive enough. What is even up with that?

Where are they? Mr Fermi. I could formulate the same thing after 2 bottles of wine simply because there is nothing exceptional about it but basic(?) knowledge of the universe as we know it, and you would probably say .. cool story bro. That's it. Its Fermi paradox because Fermi said it, not because its paradox or a great mystery.

I would not say "cool story bro." because to me it has always sounded shallow and dismissive. It grates on my nerves every time you write it- and you write it a LOT. Go ahead, keep writing it if you like. I'll keep trying to look past it. But it's really obnoxious to me.

I would respond to specific points you made with questions and comments. If we were drinking wine, you should expect my questions and comments to become more outlandish as the evening progressed. But, no, there isn't really a point where I'd simply say "cool story bro." If it's worth talking about, I'll want to talk about it. If you think it's worth talking about, I'll want to talk about it even if I disagree. But I think that you and I may have very different ideas regarding what a discussion is supposed to look like.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#26  Postby tuco » Aug 28, 2016 2:23 am

I do not care why you brought it up. I've discussed the alleged paradox before you brought it up and I did not consider it a paradox before you brought it up. You brought it up and I posted argument against it. Its not personal.

If you want to respond to something, respond to the argument I posted. Xenology institute or crank is not valid response to me however.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#27  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 28, 2016 2:25 am

tuco wrote:I do not care why you brought it up.

Then we are not having a discussion.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#28  Postby tuco » Aug 28, 2016 2:29 am

Who said we were having one? I said .. there is no Fermi paradox. You, or anyone else, can take it, leave it or comment on it. I did not post it to have discussion. I posted my position. This notion ... the purpose of the forum is to have discussion, thus anything anyone posts is sign of expectation of discussion is silly to me. I for example want to read what others have to say, not to have, sometimes endless, discussions.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#29  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 28, 2016 2:33 am

tuco wrote:Who said we were having one?

What is it that you think happens on discussion fora? :what:

I said .. there is no Fermi paradox. You, or anyone else, can take it, leave it or comment on it. I did not post it to have discussion. I posted my position. This notion ... the purpose of the forum is to have discussion, thus anything anyone posts is sign of expectation of discussion is silly to me. I for example want to read what others have to say, not to have, sometimes endless, discussions.

Very well. You can engage in your series of non sequiturs all over the place, and I will know to simply ignore you.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#30  Postby tuco » Aug 28, 2016 2:37 am

Feel free, I honestly do not care. In fact it will save me time and energy responding out of obligation to good manners.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#31  Postby Skinny Puppy » Aug 28, 2016 10:51 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
tuco wrote:Yes and what you posted is adhom instead of addressing the argument. I can also google-fu:

The winner of the 2009 Feynman Prize for Theory is Robert A. Freitas Jr. (IMM), in recognition of his pioneering theoretical work in mechanosynthesis in which he proposed specific molecular tools and analyzed them using ab initio quantum chemistry to validate their ability to build complex molecular structures. This Prize also recognizes his previous work in systems design of molecular machines, including replicating molecular manufacturing systems which should eventually be able to make large atomically precise products economically and the design of medical nanodevices which should eventually revolutionize medicine.


http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=3389

Legit crank ~

I don't see that this is relevant. Do you know who else was a crank? Linus Pauling. Despite being brilliant enough to revolutionize the field of chemistry, he was also insane enough to believe, despite a complete absence of evidence, that megadoses of vitamin C could lengthen life spans and ward off illness. The whole of the current herbal madness (including a number of preventable deaths) that's going on right now traces back to Linus Pauling. If you tell me Linus Pauling had something to say about chemistry, I'll sit up and take notice. Fucker's brilliant. But if you come to me with something Linus Pauling has to say about vitamins I'll tell you to fuck right off.

So, yeah, I saw that Mr. Freitas was an accomplished nanoengineer. As that's completely irrelevant to xenology, I feel that I took his accomplishments into account as much as was reasonable. I will happily expand my horizons with whatever Mr. Freitas has to say about nanoengineering. But it becomes very clear that he's got a hobby horse when it comes to extraterrestrial life just as Pauling did with vitamin C.

There is a term for professionals speaking beyond their field of expertise. They're called "laypeople." Or, if they're making claims without evidence, within or without their field, they're called "cranks."

ETA: Calling someone a crank is not, technically, an ad hominem. Saying that an argument is invalid because someone's a crank is an ad hominem. I didn't get as far as Mr. Freitas's argument because I saw that he was claiming membership in an imaginary institute and decided not to waste any more time.



A bit OT, but since you’ve raised the issue…

A week ago a neighbour of mine came over and complained about having a brutal case of the flu and a cold to boot. I just stood there and starred in amazement. He thought that I was being unsympathetic to his plight until I asked him:

“What’s a cold and what Is flu?” :scratch:

Then it dawned on me! I kind of remembered once about 10 years ago I was sick and I think it was called the flu and around the same time I had something similar to what my neighbour called a cold…. Well as best I can remember.

To be certain I looked both of them up in my dictionary, and sure enough, there was an explanation.

For 10 years or so I’ve followed in Linus Pauling’s footsteps, and never having a cold or the flu in all of that time, I’d kinda forgotten that they even existed.

I do envy people that get sick X number of times a year, they get days off work while I have to soldier on… in awesome health.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#32  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 29, 2016 7:00 pm

Skinny Puppy wrote:
For 10 years or so I’ve followed in Linus Pauling’s footsteps, and never having a cold or the flu in all of that time, I’d kinda forgotten that they even existed.

I do envy people that get sick X number of times a year, they get days off work while I have to soldier on… in awesome health.

My anecdotal evidence is even better and more impressive than yours. I always carry a talisman that repels tigers. I have never once encountered an uncaged tiger in all my 40+ years of living. So obviously my anti-tiger talisman works. There is no other logical explanation.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#33  Postby Skinny Puppy » Aug 29, 2016 9:05 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Skinny Puppy wrote:
For 10 years or so I’ve followed in Linus Pauling’s footsteps, and never having a cold or the flu in all of that time, I’d kinda forgotten that they even existed.

I do envy people that get sick X number of times a year, they get days off work while I have to soldier on… in awesome health.

My anecdotal evidence is even better and more impressive than yours. I always carry a talisman that repels tigers. I have never once encountered an uncaged tiger in all my 40+ years of living. So obviously my anti-tiger talisman works. There is no other logical explanation.


Actually there’s much more to it than just vitamin C, but I’ve grown accustomed to watching others suffer (I think I’m beginning to enjoy it) :oops: through so many preventable ailments, and while they scoff, I (and my wife) enjoy good health. In fact, here in Canada we have the regular flu season coming up this fall. Too bad I’ll be missing out on it since so many of my co-workers, neighbours and friends get to be sicker than a dog.

It’s odd too, when one goes to a drug store there’s aisles and aisles of cold medications, flu and fever meds, and of course, (one of my all-time favourites) the monstrous and unholy supply of laxatives and related products. It’s rather weird that no one questions why we need them... :ask: ‘cause we really don’t.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#34  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Aug 29, 2016 9:09 pm

Skinny Puppy wrote:
Actually there’s much more to it than just vitamin C, but I’ve grown accustomed to watching others suffer (I think I’m beginning to enjoy it) :oops: through so many preventable ailments, and while they scoff, I (and my wife) enjoy good health. In fact, here in Canada we have the regular flu season coming up this fall. Too bad I’ll be missing out on it since so many of my co-workers, neighbours and friends get to be sicker than a dog.

It’s odd too, when one goes to a drug store there’s aisles and aisles of cold medications, flu and fever meds, and of course, (one of my all-time favourites) the monstrous and unholy supply of laxatives and related products. It’s rather weird that no one questions why we need them... :ask: ‘cause we really don’t.

Even odder still is when people try to replicate the results you're reporting in actual studies and don't manage it. It's almost as if we're seeing the results of a collection of biases (sample bias, observation bias, etc.) or something. :ask:
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#35  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Aug 29, 2016 9:52 pm

tuco wrote:Lets go nanobots humans 2.0!


Where do you come up with these crazy ideas? :think:
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#36  Postby lpetrich » Sep 05, 2016 4:57 am

One must be careful with Proxima b's quoted mass figure. It is a projected mass, mass * projection of orbit planet onto the line of sight, or sin(inclination). If Pb's orbit is nearly face-on, then it will be much more massive than that quoted mass value. Averaging over orbit inclinations, the planet's mass will be, on average, 4/pi times its projected mass. For observed M*sin(i) = 1.27 Earth masses, I find 1.6 Earth masses.
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#37  Postby newolder » Feb 10, 2022 4:01 pm

Announcement of Proxima d - the third planet in the system - a sub-Earth orbiting the star in about 5 days.
A candidate short-period sub-Earth orbiting Proxima Centauri

ABSTRACT

Context. Proxima Centauri is the closest star to the Sun. This small, low-mass, mid M dwarf is known to host an Earth-mass exoplanet with an orbital period of 11.2 days within the habitable zone, as well as a long-period planet candidate at an orbital period close to 5 years.

Aims. We report on the analysis of a large set of observations taken with the ESPRESSO spectrograph at the VLT aimed at a thorough evaluation of the presence of a third low-mass planetary companion, which started emerging during a previous campaign.

Methods. Radial velocities (RVs) were calculated using both a cross-correlation function (CCF) and a template matching approach. The RV analysis includes a component to model Proxima’s activity using a Gaussian process (GP). We use the CCF’s full width at half maximum to help constrain the GP, and study other simultaneous observables as activity indicators in order to assess the nature of any potential RV signals.

Results. We detect a signal at 5.12 ± 0.04 days with a semi-amplitude of 39 ± 7 cms−1. The analysis of subsets of the ESPRESSO data, the activity indicators, and chromatic RVs suggest that this signal is not caused by stellar variability but instead by a planetary companion, with a minimum mass of 0.26 ± 0.05 M⊕ (about twice the mass of Mars) orbiting at 0.029 au from the star. The orbital eccentricity is well constrained and compatible with a circular orbit.

ESO PDF source
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#38  Postby Macdoc » Feb 10, 2022 6:35 pm

Wonder what the Webb willl see :popcorn:
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Re: Proxima Centauri has an orbiting planet ...

#39  Postby newolder » Feb 10, 2022 6:39 pm

I hope it's the cricket. :lay:
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