Question on entropy

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Re: Question on entropy

#21  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 16, 2019 5:29 pm

romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?

Which has a higher entropy a pack arranged by suit and order or a shuffled pack?


Your question is meaningless because you haven't connected it to any energetic measures. You started your latest fap-fest with this, romansh:

romansh wrote:
It's got nothing to do with order or disorder.


Now you don't seem to know where you want to go with it. Perhaps you should think about the energy required to put the deck back in order, because that won't happen spontaneously in the course of a typical windstorm.

You found a verbose and poorly organized pet project of an emeritus chem professor who apparently has the opinion that you should teach students that it has nothing to do with disorder. Nothing.

Lambert eventually squeezes out the relation between entropy, enthalpy, temperature and Gibbs energy at equilibrium, but nowhere in this rambling series of essays is the structure of thermodynamics presented in a coherent way. You should have thought about it before you linked it just because you found some words in it that flatter an opinion of yours.
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Re: Question on entropy

#22  Postby newolder » Jun 16, 2019 5:59 pm

romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?

Which has a higher entropy a pack arranged by suit and order or a shuffled pack?

Entropy, S, is defined as proportional to the logarithm of a system's phase space volume, W, and Boltzmann assigned k to the constant of proportionality. What does a shuffled deck of cards have to do with the chemistry-based definition of entropy change given on page 6 of your link?
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Re: Question on entropy

#23  Postby Svartalf » Jun 16, 2019 6:01 pm

well, it might be an abusive assimilation of entropy with disorder.
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Re: Question on entropy

#24  Postby Svartalf » Jun 16, 2019 6:02 pm

actually, given how many shufflings a deck of cards can take in its lifetime, I'd guess the entropy of a shuffled deck to be quite low.
u
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Re: Question on entropy

#25  Postby romansh » Jun 16, 2019 6:32 pm

newolder wrote:
romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?

Which has a higher entropy a pack arranged by suit and order or a shuffled pack?

Entropy, S, is defined as proportional to the logarithm of a system's phase space volume, W, and Boltzmann assigned k to the constant of proportionality. What does a shuffled deck of cards have to do with the chemistry-based definition of entropy change given on page 6 of your link?


You think a physics based definition should be different from a chemistry based one?

For the record I don't.
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Re: Question on entropy

#26  Postby romansh » Jun 16, 2019 6:35 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?

Which has a higher entropy a pack arranged by suit and order or a shuffled pack?


Your question is meaningless because you haven't connected it to any energetic measures. You started your latest fap-fest with this, romansh:.

So we are agreed it is not a measure of disorder.
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Re: Question on entropy

#27  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 16, 2019 6:56 pm

romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?

Which has a higher entropy a pack arranged by suit and order or a shuffled pack?



Ooh! I know that one!

Neither; from the standpoint of entropy, they're both exactly the same.
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Re: Question on entropy

#28  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 16, 2019 7:00 pm

romansh wrote:
So we are agreed it is not a measure of disorder.



Even if it was a measure of disorder, the notion of disorder in a pack of cards would be bound solely to human contrived values and rules, not to energy distributions.
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Re: Question on entropy

#29  Postby romansh » Jun 16, 2019 7:01 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?

Which has a higher entropy a pack arranged by suit and order or a shuffled pack?



Ooh! I know that one!

Neither; from the standpoint of entropy, they're both exactly the same.

ding ding ding ding
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Re: Question on entropy

#30  Postby romansh » Jun 16, 2019 7:02 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
romansh wrote:
So we are agreed it is not a measure of disorder.



Even if it was a measure of disorder, the notion of disorder in a pack of cards would be bound solely to human contrived values and rules, not to energy distributions.

more dings
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Re: Question on entropy

#31  Postby romansh » Jun 16, 2019 7:03 pm

Svartalf wrote:actually, given how many shufflings a deck of cards can take in its lifetime, I'd guess the entropy of a shuffled deck to be quite low.
u

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Re: Question on entropy

#32  Postby newolder » Jun 16, 2019 7:04 pm

romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?

Which has a higher entropy a pack arranged by suit and order or a shuffled pack?

Entropy, S, is defined as proportional to the logarithm of a system's phase space volume, W, and Boltzmann assigned k to the constant of proportionality. What does a shuffled deck of cards have to do with the chemistry-based definition of entropy change given on page 6 of your link?


You think a physics based definition should be different from a chemistry based one?

For the record I don't.

I think entropy and change in entropy are not the same. One is given by Boltzmann's equation and the other is discussed at your link and involves temperature.

From your link:
Entropy is not "disorder". No way. No how. That's an old 1890s idea that was obsolete after statistical and quantum mechanics became fully developed in chemistry.

Your pack of cards is a red herring.
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Re: Question on entropy

#33  Postby romansh » Jun 16, 2019 7:07 pm

The dimensions of entropy are energy divided by temperature???

Yes the disorder or order is a red herring … this is the point.
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Re: Question on entropy

#34  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 16, 2019 7:13 pm

The thing about the term 'entropy' is that it is used informally/colloquially as well to indicate a tendency towards disorder, but in that way it acts more like a homonym and really has nothing to do with the scientific term concerning thermodynamics or information.
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Re: Question on entropy

#35  Postby Svartalf » Jun 16, 2019 7:15 pm

which is why I assigned entropy to a deck of card, proportional to the wear and tear of use, until the deck stops being useable.due to being too worn
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Re: Question on entropy

#36  Postby newolder » Jun 16, 2019 7:16 pm

romansh wrote:The dimensions of entropy are energy divided by temperature???

The dimensions of entropy change are given at your link:
More precisely: Entropy (change) in chemistry measures either by

1) how much molecular motional energy has been spread out in a reversible process divided by the constant absolute temperature, T

deltaS = q(rev)/T


Yes the disorder or order is a red herring … this is the point.

So why did you bring it up in the first place?
So what is the probability of having a particular order of a shuffled set of cards? Is not entropy a reflection of the number of ways a system can be shuffled rather than what is the probability of any order of that system?

Which was answered by showing that a number and its reciprocal answers both questions but has nothing to do with entropy. :scratch:
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Re: Question on entropy

#37  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 16, 2019 7:21 pm

romansh wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
romansh wrote:
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?

Which has a higher entropy a pack arranged by suit and order or a shuffled pack?


Your question is meaningless because you haven't connected it to any energetic measures. You started your latest fap-fest with this, romansh:.

So we are agreed it is not a measure of disorder.


Well, you started out saying it's got nothing to do with disorder, so what you just wrote is not what you were initially asking anyone to agree or disagree with. You play games, romansh, and you've been doing it since you butted into the thread.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Question on entropy

#38  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 16, 2019 7:27 pm

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM-uykVfq_E&[/youtube]
Last edited by Spearthrower on Jun 16, 2019 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Question on entropy

#39  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 16, 2019 7:30 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM-uykVfq_E&[/youtube]


I tried to embed this link, and it won't embed. Now we see it's because of the trailing ampersand.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jun 16, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Question on entropy

#40  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 16, 2019 7:34 pm

Gahh, I give up... can't even post a bloody youtube link anymore! Spelling errors... broken quote tags... I must've crossed the age Rubicon and am now inherently incapable of doing anything on these new fangled computer thingamies.
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