Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker
Evolving wrote:Blip, intrepid pilot of light aircraft and wrangler with alligators.
Evolving wrote:Blip, intrepid pilot of light aircraft and wrangler with alligators.
romansh wrote:If you ask a chemist you might get a different answer.
It's got nothing to do with order or disorder.
http://secondlaw.oxy.edu/
I think it is a really good entry level explanation
Evolving wrote:Blip, intrepid pilot of light aircraft and wrangler with alligators.
socratus wrote:1.
Henry Poincare named the conception of "entropy " as a " surprising abstract ".
2.
Lev Landau (Dau) wrote:
" A question about the physical basis of the
entropy monotonous increasing law remains open ".
3
W. Ostwald said :" The entropy is only a shadow of energy.''
4.
The famous mathematician John von Neumann said to
"the father of information theory" Claude Shannon:
" Name it "entropy" then in discussions
you will receive solid advantage, because
nobody knows, what "entropy" basically is ".
#
It seems, scientists tackle problem of ''entropy'' in terms they exactly don't know.
============================
romansh wrote:It's got nothing to do with order or disorder.
Animavore wrote:
The early universe is like that early Guinness with low entropy and high energy.
Blip wrote:Help! How does this square with the entropy of the universe increasing?
Cito di Pense wrote:romansh wrote:It's got nothing to do with order or disorder.
Irreversibility has to do with order, and so, with probabilities. Entropy is defined in terms of probabilities, and that's why we have crank postings about entropy by socratus, who is probably some kind of determinist. But only probably.
romansh wrote:Cito di Pense wrote:romansh wrote:It's got nothing to do with order or disorder.
Irreversibility has to do with order, and so, with probabilities. Entropy is defined in terms of probabilities, and that's why we have crank postings about entropy by socratus, who is probably some kind of determinist. But only probably.
So what is the probability of having a particular order of a shuffled set of cards? Is not entropy a reflection of the number of ways a system can be shuffled rather than what is the probability of any order of that system?
Do you disagree with Lambert (my attachment) pages six and seven?
Entropy is no mystery or complicated idea. Entropy is merely the way to measure the energy that disperses or spreads out in a process (at a specific temperature). What's complicated about that?
newolder wrote:The cards can be ordered 52! ways. The probability of any individual ordering is 1/52! One is the reciprocal of the other and depends in no way on any chemistry at page 6 of that link.
The energy in a cube of ice is constantly being redistributed - in any one of a humanly incomprehensible large numbers of ways, microstates. From the above calculation via the Boltzmann equation, there are 10^1,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 microstates for "orderly" crystalline ice, with the energy of the ice in only in one microstate at one instant. Do you see now why it is not wise to talk about "order" and entropy in ice compared to "disorderly" water? What could be more disorderly than that incredible mess for ice of not just trillions times trillions times trillions times trillions of microstates (i.e., which would be only 10^48 !) but 10^1,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ? (There are only about 10^70 particles in the entire universe!)
Cito di Pense wrote:
http://2ndlaw.oxy.edu/entropy.html
There's nothing complicated about it. The other side of that coin, of course, is that it's some feeble hand-waving that doesn't permit anyone to compute or predict or analyze anything.
romansh wrote:newolder wrote:The cards can be ordered 52! ways. The probability of any individual ordering is 1/52! One is the reciprocal of the other and depends in no way on any chemistry at page 6 of that link.
from Cito's LinkThe energy in a cube of ice is constantly being redistributed - in any one of a humanly incomprehensible large numbers of ways, microstates. From the above calculation via the Boltzmann equation, there are 10^1,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 microstates for "orderly" crystalline ice, with the energy of the ice in only in one microstate at one instant. Do you see now why it is not wise to talk about "order" and entropy in ice compared to "disorderly" water? What could be more disorderly than that incredible mess for ice of not just trillions times trillions times trillions times trillions of microstates (i.e., which would be only 10^48 !) but 10^1,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ? (There are only about 10^70 particles in the entire universe!)
So water is 2.0/1.3 times more disorderly than ice? Lambert's point at the bottom of the page.
newolder wrote:
Interesting, but how is it connected to a shuffled deck of 52 playing cards?
Return to Astronomy & Space Science
Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest