Weaver wrote:

As I understand it (Mods, feel free to correct me), this sub-forum will be open to all - not limited to current or former military members. This is intended to foster more discussion, and to enable more free communication and questions from those who haven't served in a military somewhere.

Weaver wrote:Are you really trying to assert that Afghanistan had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11? Seriously? Yes, AQ had a widespread effort, and recruited their suicide attackers from a variety of places - but their primary headquarters at the time was clearly in A-stan, and A-stan refused to give them up for international justice. Some of the invasion there was certainly retribution - that is one way in which nations convince other nations that the price for violence is too high. Having been attacked first, we were legally allowed to do that.

And yes, workers' rights are being taken away in places like Wisconsin - what does this have to do with the US military?

Weaver wrote:RE: Afghanistan handing over bin Laden - the Taliban was required (by UN mandate) to hand over bin Laden for trial, and stop serving as an AQ safehaven, back in 1999.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1162108.stm

We gave them an ultimatum following the 9/11 attacks, but it's not like it was the first time they'd been told they had to do it. Requesting evidence for the attacks doesn't wash - especially when bin Laden was gleefully proclaiming to the world that he'd arranged the whole thing.

RE: Domestic politics. Strawman. US military forces, like ALL military forces in civilized nations, don't choose the missions we operate on, and don't carry out operations (other than providing humanitarian assistance) domestically.

All this has nothing to do with Atheists in Foxholes, anyways - you could start another topic in another forum if you want to criticize US policy.

talkietoaster wrote:Is it really that much of an issue that Athiests are in the military in America? I would have thought with the experiences of American fighting with other nations that you don't need to be religious to fight for your country.

Is atheism actively discriminated against in the US military?

Weaver wrote:

talkietoaster wrote:Is it really that much of an issue that Athiests are in the military in America? I would have thought with the experiences of American fighting with other nations that you don't need to be religious to fight for your country.

Is atheism actively discriminated against in the US military?

Yes, to greater or lesser extent. See some of the other threads in this forum.

Weaver wrote:There are no atheist/humanist chaplains or counselors (other than those employed in the mental health arena as psychologists or the like, and most of them are religious to some degree, some severely); to my knowledge there never have been.

British Humanist Association Website wrote:From the many requests that the BHA receives for it, the BHA recognises that there is a demand for humanist ‘chaplaincy’ equivalents, in particular in closed environments such as hospitals, the armed services, prisons and (to some extent) tertiary and further education. Such services need to be distinguished from

* psychotherapy (where a trained professional treats 'disorders of the mind or personality by psychological or psychophysiological methods' [OED])

* counselling (a form of psychotherapy where a trained 'counsellor adopts a permissive and supportive role in enabling a client to solve his or her own problems' [OED])

* and from plain befriending or contact, as in prison visiting.

When referring to these services, the BHA prefers not to use the word 'chaplaincy', which retains sufficient religious connotations to be inappropriate as a meaningful description. Whatever it is called, pastoral care specifically for the non-religious in this sense needs to give advice and reassurance on an existential level, helping with questions relating to beliefs and ethics and to a person’s worldview or lifestance. There are successful examples of humanist 'moral counsellors' performing this function for the non-religious in prisons, hospitals and the armed forces in Belgium, Norway, the Netherlands and elsewhere, alongside religious chaplains.

Weaver wrote:Ah, I was speaking of the US military. I've heard that other militaries are more sensible about this issue - good to see some links.

At a May 2011 prayer breakfast, reported by TRCB News:

"[Keynote speaker and Naval Station Great Lakes Commander Robert Sullivan] shared an army saying which said that there are no atheists in foxholes. This moment made the audience chuckle."

This kind of unquestioned, joking derision by a senior official shows just how difficult it is to be atheist in the US military. This is not surprising considering the priority given to religious activities and the widespread misunderstanding of nontheistic perspectives.

The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (MAAF), which I presently serve as president, represents atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers and other nontheists within the military. MAAF is based in the US, but includes members in Canada, Australia, and even Israel and Egypt. The UK Armed Forces Humanist Association similarly represents UK service members. The US Military Leadership Diversity Commission recently consolidated four studies of religious demographics showing that there are more secular humanists than Jews, Muslims and even many Protestant denominations. Yet, we find no humanist chaplains, and little, if any, outreach or training on the humanist perspective; rather, we find discriminatory comments from senior officers.

In the US military, the chaplaincy is afforded great responsibility, access to service members, funding and senior positions within the chain of command. During America's revolutionary war, chaplains were established to provide Protestant Christian worship services for the troops. Fast forward to today, one finds chaplains representing over 100 different faith groups and performing a wide range of counselling and staff duties well outside the realm of religious worship services. Similar non-chaplain services are available for counselling, mental health and recreation, but they are not as accessible, not integrated within the command, not confidential and simply not equivalent. With the expanded counselling, training and advisory roles of the modern chaplaincy, chaplains must represent all service members.
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