Ancient Apple Trees

Evolution, Natural Selection, Medicine, Psychology & Neuroscience.

Moderators: Calilasseia, Mazille

Ancient Apple Trees

 
 

Ancient Apple Trees

#1  Postby The_Metatron » Nov 27, 2011 8:23 am

Apologies for the crappy photos, the iPhone isn't up to it today, it seems.

Last month, I ordered a pair of ancient apple trees at an apple festival. The first photo is a Reinette des Capucins, the second tree is a Joseph Musch. These saplings are three meters tall.

Image
Image

I know nothing about caring for apple trees. I was just guessing about planting them. They're 10 meters apart. I tied the suppo ropes using a know that doesn't constrict around the tree, but just to hold it up in the wind until the roots lengthen. How long is that?

Can any of our horticulturists point me to a good resource on apple trees?

While we were there picking up the apple trees, they gave us a pair of hazelnut saplings:

Image
Image

...and a pair of lilac saplings. I'llknow what color when they bloom, I guess.

Image
Image
My blog, Skepdick.eu

"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan

Image
User avatar
The_Metatron
RS Donator
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 5953
Age: 49
Male

Country: Belgium
United States (us)

Re: Ancient Apple Trees

#2  Postby Ironclad » Nov 27, 2011 8:46 am

I think you were ripped off, Meta. Those are new. Nice mind.
Mazille wrote: "I never thought I'd say this, but: GO JESUS!" :dance:

Byofrcs wrote -
Piss-off you moronic tin hat wearing woo worshippers.


NilsGLindgren wrote -
I tried sitting on my hands but, apparently my arse isn't heavy enough.
User avatar
Ironclad
 
Name: Sir Iron of Clad
Posts: 3826
Age: 9
Male

Country: On the beach!
England (eng)

Re: Ancient Apple Trees

#3  Postby halucigenia » Dec 10, 2011 9:27 am

Sorry to say, but it looks to me that they’re not planted properly from what I can tell of the photos.

Did you just scoop out enough soil to bung the roots into the hole? :thumbdown:
or did you dig a pit 1m3 break up the the bottom of the pit, backfill with good top soil and compost/manure/fertiliser? :thumbup:
Image
If you did not do this you should, just be careful not to damage the roots when lifting them out of the soil.

The smaller saplings should not need such a large planting pit, but dig out at least a spade depth of soil for them.
Just imagine that you are planting them in a pot that is going to have to last them the rest of their lives, you would not plant them in too smaller pot if you could not re-pot them would you. Not a perfect analogy as the roots will eventually penetrate the tree pit walls but you want to give them more than a fighting chance to establish themselves quickly.
Also I would not replace the grass but mulch the surface of the planting pit with bark or something as this will keep any weed growth down and prevent you from damaging the stems when trying to cut the grass around them.
Also, keep a check on the where the material that you used for stabilising them touches the stem for rubbing and as they grow make sure that it's not cutting in to the stem. Using rubber or firm foam around the stem would help.

Oh, and don’t forget to water them well, especially in the first couple of years, just imagine them in that small pot again until their roots spread they won't benefit from moisture in the soul that is not directly around them.

Also you should prune back the leader and any side branches to help create a short main stem and bushy branch structure - you want to be able to reach the apples without the aid of a ladder don't you?
How to prune an apple tree
Image

My apologies if you did plant them correctly, it's hard to tell from the photos. :oops:
User avatar
halucigenia
 
Posts: 461


Re: Ancient Apple Trees

#4  Postby ramseyoptom » Dec 10, 2011 10:58 pm

Regarding the apple trees do you know which root stock they are on, or are they on native root stock? The reason for asking is that fruit trees are often grafted on to a dwarfing rootstock (M26) or semi-dwarfing rootstock such as M7 or MM106. I have a few fruit trees on a real dwarfing root stock M9 which really need to be grown in a container (in my experience). If they are on M2 or M111 you'll need or your space as they are very vigorous.

As halucigenia says you shouldn't leave the grass upto the tree stems, for two reasons it allows a possibl rot source near the trunk and you will need to mulch fairly heavily in future years and bare soil will allow the mulch to be taken into the soil.

Try these links for care. pruning etc:
The BBC home of Gardeners World and GQT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/gardening/basics/techniques/plant_tree1.shtml#when_to_plant

or:
Royal Horticultural Society
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/profile.aspx?PID=237

Hope you enjoy and don't forget the grease band around the trunk about 1 metre up.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
ramseyoptom
 
Name: Ian
Posts: 943
Age: 61
Male

Country: Isle of Man
Isle of Man (im)

Re: Ancient Apple Trees

#5  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 11, 2011 7:42 am

Thanks for the information.

They didn't come with root balls, which surprised me. They were bare roots, with all the dirt shaken off. So, I had to dig the holes pretty big. My top soil is nice here, so I didn't do anything special with the backfill. I won't forget abut the watering, though. I wonder how many years it will take to get some deep taproots on these trees?

No choice about the height of these trees. They've been pruned so the branches don't leave the trunk until two meters up. I'm pretty sure the Reinette des Capucin has no grafting, and I'm pretty sure the Joseph Musch has been grafted to a Reinette trunk. My wife still has the email address of the orchrd we got them from, so I'll ask about that trunk. I do remember when we ordered them, we chose the tall tree instead of the dwarf size. They said they live longer. I see a damned big ladder in the future.

I'm unconvinced about the need for special grass control around the tree, though. The trees we had at the house where I grew up, the trees in a relative's orchard, nor any other tree I knew had no special mulching or trimming around the trunk.

What is this grease band? I never heard of that, either.
My blog, Skepdick.eu

"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan

Image
User avatar
The_Metatron
RS Donator
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 5953
Age: 49
Male

Country: Belgium
United States (us)

Re: Ancient Apple Trees

#6  Postby kiore » Dec 11, 2011 8:39 am

Grease bands are used to stop caterpillars, well anyway that was the explanation I received as a child growing up in a horticultural area, we always put grease bands around apple trees and some other trees as well. I like to keep grass clear from the base of fruit trees, again a habit picked up as a child and so maybe unneccessarry.
The first branches at 2 metres? Wow, you will need a ladder, or maybe prune to have those branches hanging down to make a lower hanging canopy.
Folding@Home Team member.
Image
What does this stuff mean?
Read here:
general-science/folding-home-team-182116-t616.html
User avatar
kiore
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 7839
Age: 100

Country: South Sudan
Antarctica (aq)

Re: Ancient Apple Trees

 
 

Re: Ancient Apple Trees

#7  Postby halucigenia » Dec 11, 2011 11:14 am

The_Metatron wrote:Thanks for the information.
That's OK

The_Metatron wrote:They didn't come with root balls, which surprised me. They were bare roots, with all the dirt shaken off. So, I had to dig the holes pretty big. My top soil is nice here, so I didn't do anything special with the backfill. I won't forget abut the watering, though. I wonder how many years it will take to get some deep taproots on these trees?
Bare root is fine as long as they are protected from drying out in transport, too late now but I hope you did not leave them lying around for too long before planting. I always heel in bare root plants as soon as I get them before planting them in their final position. So I would not worry too much about replanting them if you think it's worth the effort and are careful enough. Big holes = good. However, even if you have good topsoil how deep does it go and every kind of topsoil can be improved by manure/compost being added. Not only does it add nutrients but it helps retain moisture too.
I doubt that the tree will get a large tap root for many years if ever, they tend to undercut the roots in nurseries so they don't get long tap roots (downward growing ones) as it helps to make their lifting and transporting easier. The basic rule is the larger the tree when planted the longer it will take to establish itself, a small whip will usually catch up with a larger bare root tree in a matter of a few years. It will need to be watered in dry weather for several years before it can cope on it's own especially if the soil has not been improved with organic matter or mulched, more reason to have prepared the soil better and mulched. This may also affect the length of time you need to keep the stakes on, if it establishes quickly you can take the stakes off after a year or two, depending on how windy your garden is. IMHO it's better to use shorter stakes or non at all to get a tree to establish and support itself. However, with a large tree in an exposed area that has not had the soil improved it is still best to stake it and keep it supported and watered for a several years.

The_Metatron wrote:No choice about the height of these trees. They've been pruned so the branches don't leave the trunk until two meters up. I'm pretty sure the Reinette des Capucin has no grafting, and I'm pretty sure the Joseph Musch has been grafted to a Reinette trunk. My wife still has the email address of the orchrd we got them from, so I'll ask about that trunk. I do remember when we ordered them, we chose the tall tree instead of the dwarf size. They said they live longer. I see a damned big ladder in the future.
It's entirely your choice about pruning it. To a certain extent the method of pruning is determined by the position and use of the tree. If you want a garden tree in the middle of a lawn that is easy to mow around and walk under, then you don't want any branches lower than 2m. If you are planting an orchard and are thinking of ease of picking you still have the option to cut it right back to encourage lower branching. Since you asked for a tall growing tree I guess you are wanting a "garden" tree. It may be a few years before you need the tall ladders but al least cut the leader and existing branches back to encourage a bushier canopy, you might want to keep the canopy well branched but open though in a garden setting.

The_Metatron wrote:I'm unconvinced about the need for special grass control around the tree, though. The trees we had at the house where I grew up, the trees in a relative's orchard, nor any other tree I knew had no special mulching or trimming around the trunk.
Yes, but they were probably established trees, all it takes is to be careless with the mower or strimmer to damage the stem until it becomes a robust trunk and the less other things growing around the roots the better - less competition for water and nutrients, at least until it gets established. And a nice round or square patch around the tree covered in ornamental bark looks better than scraggy grass that takes some care to cut without damaging the tree. It makes it easier to water it too if there is a border around it with an edge as in really dry weather the water will not run off the surface and just water your lawn elsewhere. Also when it's established you could grow some ornamental plants in the small border around it or a clematis or rambling rose up the tree.

The_Metatron wrote:What is this grease band? I never heard of that, either.
They're that Grunge rock group aren’t they? ;)
User avatar
halucigenia
 
Posts: 461



Return to Biological Sciences

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest