How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

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How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#1  Postby kennyc » Mar 18, 2014 7:23 pm

not with Polynesians apparently....

Chickens Didn't Cross the Pacific With Polynesian Seafarers, Study Says
New finding casts doubt on the theory that Polynesians made it to South America.
by Roff Smith


So why did the chicken cross the Pacific? Well, apparently it didn't. At least not all the way.

Scientists looking into the DNA of ancient and modern chicken breeds found throughout Micronesia and Polynesia have determined that they are genetically distinct from those found in South America. The research runs counter to a popular theory that Polynesian seafarers might have reached the coast of South America hundreds of years ago, before European explorers.

Among the intriguing indications that contact might have been made between Polynesians and the native peoples of South America was the supposed pre-Columbian presence of non-native chickens, allegedly introduced to the continent by seafarers from South Pacific islands. More evidence comes from the ubiquity of the sweet potato, a South American native, in the South Pacific—it was already widespread throughout the islands by the time James Cook sailed into the region in 1770. (See National Geographic's South Pacific photos.)

Now it appears the chicken link, at least, may be severed, according to Alan Cooper, director of the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA, a co-author of the study published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Researchers sequenced mitochondrial DNA from 22 chicken bones found at Polynesian archaeological sites and 122 feathers from modern chickens living on islands across the South Pacific. They used an enzyme to remove any contamination by modern DNA that may have clouded the results of earlier studies. When the team compared the "cleaned-up" DNA of Polynesian chickens with that of ancient and modern South American chickens, they found the two groups were genetically distinct.

....


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... 526+Nature)
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#2  Postby hackenslash » Mar 18, 2014 7:29 pm

Not with Malaysian Airlines, either...

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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#3  Postby kennyc » Mar 18, 2014 7:33 pm

hackenslash wrote:Not with Malaysian Airlines, either...

:hide:



Truth!

:naughty2:
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#4  Postby Mazille » Mar 18, 2014 8:12 pm

A study like that is a science writer's wet dream. The title practically writes itself.
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#5  Postby The_Piper » Mar 18, 2014 9:26 pm

:popcorn:
Pre-Columbian chickens in Chile, I'd never heard of that, nor the sweet potatoes found across the Pacific. Fascinating.
Where'd you get the coconuts chickens? /French Taunter
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#6  Postby kennyc » Mar 18, 2014 9:28 pm

Sounds like a nice dinner! :D
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#7  Postby The_Piper » Mar 18, 2014 9:53 pm

:lol: There's also the bottle gourd, but that probably floated across the Pacific. Or it could have been carried by a (non-European) swallow. :shifty:
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#8  Postby Vipera Berus » Mar 20, 2014 12:02 am

The_Piper wrote::lol: There's also the bottle gourd, but that probably floated across the Pacific. Or it could have been carried by a (non-European) swallow. :shifty:


Would you be thinking of the African swallow for you would be wrong as it is non migratory.
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#9  Postby DaveScriv » Mar 21, 2014 10:20 pm

I'm inclined to think this study is wrong, because chickens were described as being widespread in South America by the earliest Spanish explorers/conquistadors. These explorers bought eggs to restock their ship's food supplies, and the eggs were of many shell colours, including blue and green, as do Araucana chickens now, also do Rapanui Fowl on Easter (Rapa) Island and Pitcairn Island.
These chickens were described in a letter by Hernan Cortez to Emperor Charles I (Charles V of Germany) dated 30 October 1520.
There was another reference of chickens in South America by a Jesuit priest, Rev, Fr, Ricardo Capa in 1541.
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#10  Postby kennyc » Mar 21, 2014 10:56 pm

I'll let you take that up with the study/dna experts.
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#11  Postby The_Piper » Mar 22, 2014 10:32 pm

DaveScriv wrote:I'm inclined to think this study is wrong, because chickens were described as being widespread in South America by the earliest Spanish explorers/conquistadors. These explorers bought eggs to restock their ship's food supplies, and the eggs were of many shell colours, including blue and green, as do Araucana chickens now, also do Rapanui Fowl on Easter (Rapa) Island and Pitcairn Island.
These chickens were described in a letter by Hernan Cortez to Emperor Charles I (Charles V of Germany) dated 30 October 1520.
There was another reference of chickens in South America by a Jesuit priest, Rev, Fr, Ricardo Capa in 1541.

I thought Pitcairn island was uninhabited until 1790? For the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible that coastal American natives had traded the chickens from Europe and through trade, they found their way to Chile in the years between Columbus and Europeans in Chile?
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#12  Postby DaveScriv » Mar 23, 2014 7:55 am

The_Piper wrote:
DaveScriv wrote:I'm inclined to think this study is wrong, because chickens were described as being widespread in South America by the earliest Spanish explorers/conquistadors. These explorers bought eggs to restock their ship's food supplies, and the eggs were of many shell colours, including blue and green, as do Araucana chickens now, also do Rapanui Fowl on Easter (Rapa) Island and Pitcairn Island.
These chickens were described in a letter by Hernan Cortez to Emperor Charles I (Charles V of Germany) dated 30 October 1520.
There was another reference of chickens in South America by a Jesuit priest, Rev, Fr, Ricardo Capa in 1541.

I thought Pitcairn island was uninhabited until 1790? For the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible that coastal American natives had traded the chickens from Europe and through trade, they found their way to Chile in the years between Columbus and Europeans in Chile?


The puzzle remains that chickens were found by the Spanish in South America in large numbers and many places, far too many and too widespread for them to have been there only since 1492. Plus there is the egg shell colours thing. Blue and green shelled chicken eggs clearly indicate a link with Polynesia, not Europe or Africa.

I'm in contact with the people doing the multi university chicken-human interaction study project (I've written two books about the history of chicken breeds, mainly since circa 1850, which they are using), and will ask them for their views.
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#13  Postby The_Piper » Mar 23, 2014 11:29 am

DaveScriv wrote:
The_Piper wrote:
DaveScriv wrote:I'm inclined to think this study is wrong, because chickens were described as being widespread in South America by the earliest Spanish explorers/conquistadors. These explorers bought eggs to restock their ship's food supplies, and the eggs were of many shell colours, including blue and green, as do Araucana chickens now, also do Rapanui Fowl on Easter (Rapa) Island and Pitcairn Island.
These chickens were described in a letter by Hernan Cortez to Emperor Charles I (Charles V of Germany) dated 30 October 1520.
There was another reference of chickens in South America by a Jesuit priest, Rev, Fr, Ricardo Capa in 1541.

I thought Pitcairn island was uninhabited until 1790? For the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible that coastal American natives had traded the chickens from Europe and through trade, they found their way to Chile in the years between Columbus and Europeans in Chile?


The puzzle remains that chickens were found by the Spanish in South America in large numbers and many places, far too many and too widespread for them to have been there only since 1492. Plus there is the egg shell colours thing. Blue and green shelled chicken eggs clearly indicate a link with Polynesia, not Europe or Africa.

I'm in contact with the people doing the multi university chicken-human interaction study project (I've written two books about the history of chicken breeds, mainly since circa 1850, which they are using), and will ask them for their views.

Ok. (I meant to say Pitcairn was not inhabited until 1790.) I'd think either the carbon dates of the bones are wrong, the dna study is wrong, or history is wrong. Or any combination of the three.
Very interesting. It's like 2200 miles from Easter Island to the nearest point in Chile, and that's not necessarily the easiest route. But that people found and colonized Easter Island, given how tiny and remote it is, makes it sound at least theoretically possible to me, that some would have tried to go further. Especially just having learned about Easter Island's overpopulation and running out of trees.
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#14  Postby Agrippina » Mar 23, 2014 3:52 pm

Is it possible that their ancestors flew there and that the process of losing the ability to fly happened to all the descendants and for the same reason, in around the same timespan. They just liked the place, didn't want to leave, so lost the ability to fly. It sounds a little flippant, and I'm in a flip mood today, but I mean this seriously. If humans developed similar characteristics that has put us all at the same level of evolution, no matter where we live, couldn't that have happened to other species as well? I don't know I'm asking.
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#15  Postby kennyc » Mar 23, 2014 4:00 pm

Agrippina wrote:Is it possible that their ancestors flew there and that the process of losing the ability to fly happened to all the descendants and for the same reason, in around the same timespan. They just liked the place, didn't want to leave, so lost the ability to fly. It sounds a little flippant, and I'm in a flip mood today, but I mean this seriously. If humans developed similar characteristics that has put us all at the same level of evolution, no matter where we live, couldn't that have happened to other species as well? I don't know I'm asking.


:think: :think: :think:
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#16  Postby DaveScriv » Mar 23, 2014 4:32 pm

The_Piper wrote:
DaveScriv wrote:
The_Piper wrote:
DaveScriv wrote:I'm inclined to think this study is wrong, because chickens were described as being widespread in South America by the earliest Spanish explorers/conquistadors. These explorers bought eggs to restock their ship's food supplies, and the eggs were of many shell colours, including blue and green, as do Araucana chickens now, also do Rapanui Fowl on Easter (Rapa) Island and Pitcairn Island.
These chickens were described in a letter by Hernan Cortez to Emperor Charles I (Charles V of Germany) dated 30 October 1520.
There was another reference of chickens in South America by a Jesuit priest, Rev, Fr, Ricardo Capa in 1541.

I thought Pitcairn island was uninhabited until 1790? For the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible that coastal American natives had traded the chickens from Europe and through trade, they found their way to Chile in the years between Columbus and Europeans in Chile?


The puzzle remains that chickens were found by the Spanish in South America in large numbers and many places, far too many and too widespread for them to have been there only since 1492. Plus there is the egg shell colours thing. Blue and green shelled chicken eggs clearly indicate a link with Polynesia, not Europe or Africa.

I'm in contact with the people doing the multi university chicken-human interaction study project (I've written two books about the history of chicken breeds, mainly since circa 1850, which they are using), and will ask them for their views.

Ok. (I meant to say Pitcairn was not inhabited until 1790.) I'd think either the carbon dates of the bones are wrong, the dna study is wrong, or history is wrong. Or any combination of the three.
Very interesting. It's like 2200 miles from Easter Island to the nearest point in Chile, and that's not necessarily the easiest route. But that people found and colonized Easter Island, given how tiny and remote it is, makes it sound at least theoretically possible to me, that some would have tried to go further. Especially just having learned about Easter Island's overpopulation and running out of trees.


According to the relevant Wikipedia page, the Pitcairn Islands (Pitcairn + 3 smaller islands) were inhabited by Polynesians from the 11thC to the 15thC, then they left because of deforestation as on Easter/Rapa Island. It was uninhabited when discovered by Pedro Fernandez de Quires in January 1606 and discovered again by Captain Cook in 1767. So this does make it possible that Polynesians may have travelled on to Chile sometime between 11th & 15th centuries. I'm guessing that if they got there during the earlier half of this time period it would give some chance of chickens being spread about a bit. It had been thought that Polynesians got to South America much earlier than that. I don't know about that, as my interest is in the history of chickens. Perhaps research which has been done on the spread of other species of domestic livestock will give some indication of how long it might have taken for chickens to spread across the continent (or around the coasts at least).
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#17  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » Mar 23, 2014 7:09 pm

Regardless of whether-or-not chickens provide the evidence; I'd be frankly shocked if no Polynesians ever made it to South America.

These people had managed to cross vast stretches of the Pacific Ocean, reached most of the tiny specks of land to be found in it (including some of the most physically remote islands on Earth), and we're supposed to believe that in all that time they somehow never encountered the massive great landmass on the other side? Surely it's a hard target to miss?

The gap distance the most westerly lands the Polynesians are known to have reached and the American mainland couldn't have been so much vaster or more challenging than distances they'd already covered up to that point.
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#18  Postby The_Piper » Mar 23, 2014 8:04 pm

DaveScriv wrote:According to the relevant Wikipedia page, the Pitcairn Islands (Pitcairn + 3 smaller islands) were inhabited by Polynesians from the 11thC to the 15thC, then they left because of deforestation as on Easter/Rapa Island. It was uninhabited when discovered by Pedro Fernandez de Quires in January 1606 and discovered again by Captain Cook in 1767. So this does make it possible that Polynesians may have travelled on to Chile sometime between 11th & 15th centuries. I'm guessing that if they got there during the earlier half of this time period it would give some chance of chickens being spread about a bit.

Oh yeah, cool! Did they leave chickens behind for mutineers to find in 1790? (only because you originally mentioned the colored eggs from Pitcairn)
That would have been an interesting experiment like the Galapogos, feral chickens marooned in the middle of the ocean. :mrgreen:
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#19  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Mar 23, 2014 8:15 pm

The real question here is; Why did the chicken cross the Pacific.

answers in 3... 2... 1...
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Re: How does a Chicken cross the Pacific?

#20  Postby DaveScriv » Mar 23, 2014 8:19 pm

The_Piper wrote:
DaveScriv wrote:According to the relevant Wikipedia page, the Pitcairn Islands (Pitcairn + 3 smaller islands) were inhabited by Polynesians from the 11thC to the 15thC, then they left because of deforestation as on Easter/Rapa Island. It was uninhabited when discovered by Pedro Fernandez de Quires in January 1606 and discovered again by Captain Cook in 1767. So this does make it possible that Polynesians may have travelled on to Chile sometime between 11th & 15th centuries. I'm guessing that if they got there during the earlier half of this time period it would give some chance of chickens being spread about a bit.

Oh yeah, cool! Did they leave chickens behind for mutineers to find in 1790? (only because you originally mentioned the colored eggs from Pitcairn)
That would have been an interesting experiment like the Galapogos, feral chickens marooned in the middle of the ocean. :mrgreen:


I have no idea if feral chickens were found on Pitcairn and/or Easter/Rapa in 1606 or 1767, but apparently there are some there now.

Article about Rapanui Fowl on these islands:

http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/13E06A05.pdf
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