Microbes On Enceladus?

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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#41  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 10, 2018 1:42 pm

juju7 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote: You're going to have to put up or shut up, and you'll do the latter, because you're trolling with nothing but pedantry at your service.


It will probably surprise you, but in science the proper terminology needs to be used.

Call it pedantry, if you like, but it's a poor excuse for your ignorance.


Read the title of the following article:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/je60065a014

If any of the words are too difficult for you, I can help you understand them. Perhaps you can correspond with these authors or many like them, in order to explain to them how their terminology is not 'proper'.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#42  Postby newolder » Jul 10, 2018 1:50 pm

From wiki on photodissociation:
Photodissociation, photolysis, or photodecomposition is a chemical reaction in which a chemical compound is broken down by photons.

There appears to be three processes, dissociation, lysis and decomposition, to which light can be added (photo) to break chemicals. (I'm neither chemist nor wordsmith so:) How do they differ and why the surfeit of terminology here? :ask:
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#43  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 10, 2018 2:53 pm

newolder wrote:From wiki on photodissociation:
Photodissociation, photolysis, or photodecomposition is a chemical reaction in which a chemical compound is broken down by photons.

There appears to be three processes, dissociation, lysis and decomposition, to which light can be added (photo) to break chemicals. (I'm neither chemist nor wordsmith so:) How do they differ and why the surfeit of terminology here? :ask:


All chemical reactions involve exchanges of energy, and the energy is (as we know) quantized. The wiki article has descriptions of when those terms are appropriate, but those do not encompass the scope of all chemical reactions. When somebody burbles that 'decomposition' is the only correct term in the context where I used 'dissociation', it behooves him to trot out his reference material and explain whence he gets all that authority and why he thinks he needs it in an informal discussion. This thread is a bullshit fracas about microbes on Enceladus into which was injected the marvelous sidetrack of panspermia. I'm used to the kind of tactics some of our members use to get a word in edgewise when that's the only thing they have that fits.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#44  Postby zoon » Jul 10, 2018 10:35 pm

Googling The Free Dictionary here and here:
thermal dissociation
The breaking down of a chemical compound by heat into smaller components which recombine to form the original compound on cooling.

thermal decomposition
The breaking down of a chemical compound by heat into smaller components which do not recombine on cooling.

I imagine either would be unhelpful to incipient life forms.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#45  Postby Macdoc » Jul 10, 2018 11:13 pm

FFS the pedantry is thick around here ..... :roll:

Getting Jamest to think outside the box of earth-centric biogenesis hardly qualifies as an OT. :nono: Typical bit of arrogance from an all too common source.

For all we know Enceladus could have seeded earth given the smaller gravity well and Jupiter's penchant for slinging rocks around the solar system :coffee:
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#46  Postby newolder » Jul 11, 2018 7:16 am

The week's SpaceTime with Stuart Gary begins with an article on the organics at Enceladus.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#47  Postby juju7 » Jul 11, 2018 7:49 am

Cito di Pense wrote:

If any of the words are too difficult for you, I can help you understand them.


No you can't, since you don't even understand the terms that you yourself use.

Nevertheless, I'm sure you learnt something while you were furiously googling to find a reference that explained the difference between dissociation and decomposition.

There is a reason why words have meaning, and especially in science it is important.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#48  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 11, 2018 7:55 am

juju7 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:If any of the words are too difficult for you, I can help you understand them.


No you can't, since you don't even understand the terms that you yourself use.

Nevertheless, I'm sure you learnt something while you were furiously googling to find a reference that explained the difference between dissociation and decomposition.

There is a reason why words have meaning, and especially in science it is important.


But you are apparently unable or unwilling to account for the importance of the difference in this case, and why my terminology was incorrect. That's because you don't have a case. If you think the difference is important in this bullshit discussion, make your case. You're the one who made a fuss about it in the first place, and the burden to make your case rests on you. So let me refresh your memory: I referred to the dissociation temperatures of organic molecules. If you want to call that thermal decomposition, make your fucking case. Your innuendo and insults are nothing more than what I expect from you under the circumstances. Please forgive my tone if your facility in English is insufficient to answer my questions.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#49  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 11, 2018 8:00 am

Macdoc wrote:Typical bit of arrogance from an all too common source.


It's true that I've been arrogant, Macdoc, but I've not been arrogant around people whose opinions I respect. For you to make a point of picking at someone else's arrogance is just outdoing the usual hilarious puffery you emit. Just like you, I'm quite fond of insulting what I think is the tendency of some people to overestimate their capabilities. The difference between us is, you've got pot-kettle problems I don't have in that department. You run a business, Macdoc. Stick to that, stick to showing the world photos of your front porch you collected from one of your gadgets, or pictures of you on your motorcycle, and stay away from heavy-duty science.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#50  Postby juju7 » Jul 12, 2018 8:02 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
juju7 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:If any of the words are too difficult for you, I can help you understand them.


No you can't, since you don't even understand the terms that you yourself use.

Nevertheless, I'm sure you learnt something while you were furiously googling to find a reference that explained the difference between dissociation and decomposition.

There is a reason why words have meaning, and especially in science it is important.


But you are apparently unable or unwilling to account for the importance of the difference in this case, and why my terminology was incorrect.

Unwilling.

Go on a beginner's course on chemistry, maybe there is a community college near you?
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#51  Postby Sendraks » Jul 12, 2018 8:04 am

juju7 wrote:
I have better things to do with my time.


Apparently supporting your arguments is not one of those things.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#52  Postby laklak » Jul 12, 2018 2:25 pm

He he he he he
They said "spermia"
He he he he he
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#53  Postby Rumraket » Jul 12, 2018 11:03 pm

I really hope I will long enough to see probes/robots/rover missions to Enceladus, Europa, and Ganymede. I want to know if there is life elsewhere in the solar system, I want to know (if it exists) how it works.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#54  Postby juju7 » Jul 13, 2018 6:54 am

Sendraks wrote:
juju7 wrote:
I have better things to do with my time.


Apparently supporting your arguments is not one of those things.
:coffee:


What argument?
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#55  Postby juju7 » Jul 13, 2018 6:56 am

laklak wrote:He he he he he
They said "spermia"
He he he he he


OK I get it. Chimp ejaculate would be Pan Sperm.

Very good.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#56  Postby juju7 » Jul 13, 2018 7:00 am

Rumraket wrote:I really hope I will long enough to see probes/robots/rover missions to Enceladus, Europa, and Ganymede. I want to know if there is life elsewhere in the solar system, I want to know (if it exists) how it works.

The chemistry would very likely answer the question of common origin.
There remains a question, a very old one. If life were to emerge with very different chemistry, would we be able to recognise it as life.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#57  Postby Macdoc » Jul 13, 2018 7:57 am

Well we seem to have problem even now with viruses and even prions...and other odd wee ? :scratch:
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#58  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 13, 2018 9:00 am

juju7 wrote:There remains a question, a very old one. If life were to emerge with very different chemistry, would we be able to recognise it as life.


If it's old, that means it's philosophical. What we 'recognise' is a function of the definition we are using. Any attempt to keep the definition vague is a function of some other priority than a scientific one. Like, e.g., a philosophical one.

What I mean is this: Why would very different chemistry defeat a recognition as long as we didn't get caught up in the definition of life as having a specific chemistry? We could instead focus on (self)-replication and being subject to natural selection in the reproductive sense. Do you think there might be something else to being 'alive'? If so, add your criteria, explicitly. Please try to avoid arguments that invoke vitalism, which is all about being spooked, as usual.

Macdoc wrote:Well we seem to have problem even now with viruses and even prions...and other odd wee ?


That's a result of keeping the definition vague. Or maybe, dependent on whether we think something else feels alive. Oh, those fee-fees. But it's philosophical, because we need telepathy or hermeneutics to know about somebody else's fee-fees.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#59  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 13, 2018 10:39 pm

Actually, my understanding is that the problems with viruses and prions being considered 'alive', are due to attempts to apply a precise definition of 'alive', not a vague one, to a collection of entities that don't fit neatly into the categories we invent.
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Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#60  Postby Macdoc » Jul 13, 2018 10:52 pm

Yes ....so dealing with possible alien life could present similar problems but if it walks, slithers or swims up to you and either tries to eat you or feed you.....it's likely alive. :roll:

Mars could give us our first life that is potentially different than earth based even if in degree. Interesting times.

Silicon based entities which we are rapidly developing present a definition problem of life/alive as well....does it need to be wetware to qualify?? :coffee:
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