Microbes On Enceladus?

It appears they're possible ...

Evolution, Natural Selection, Medicine, Psychology & Neuroscience.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Microbes On Enceladus?

#1  Postby Calilasseia » Feb 28, 2018 1:47 am

Nice article from New Scientist, covering the subject of possible indigenous microbes on Enceladus.

A team from the University of Vienna, took an Earth-based microbe, in the form of a deep sea Japanese Archaean, and tested to see if it could survive in simulated Enceladus conditions. Apparently, it can.

Which means that some interesting conclusions arise from this research even before a mission is planned.

[1] We now know that an organisms with Earth-style biochemistry can survive under simulated Enceladus conditions, and therefore is likely to be capable of surviving on Enceladus itself.

[2] From [1] above, we deduce that NASA will have to exercise special diligence, in order to avoid contaminating Enceladus with Earth microbes, which would of course ruin any experiments aimed at detecting indigenous Enceladus microbes.

[3] If a microbe with Earth-style biochemistry can eke out a living under simulated Enceladus conditions, then any indigenous microbes that are present, possibly with a different, indigenous biochemistry, will almost certainly do better.

Of course, the only way to find out for sure, is to plan a mission, and launch it. A mission that in the light of the latest findings, will require special care to put together.

Which leads to another thorny issue. If indigenous Enceladus microbes are discovered, then finding out about their biochemistry in detail, is going to require a lot of thought. Sending a spacecraft equipped to do this in situ is going to be hideously expensive. On the other hand, bringing some of those microbes back to Earth for study, opens up cans of worms that have already formed the basis of some lurid science fiction movies.

But in the meantime, we're now an interesting step closer to establishing that life on Enceladus is possible.

And, while a future mission is being thought out, we can enjoy the scientific paper from the authors.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 21817
Age: 56
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#2  Postby The_Piper » Feb 28, 2018 4:29 am

They could build a space lab and have Spacex tow it out past the moon. That way we won't contaminate Earth and have to nuke it from orbit. :mrgreen:
Would they capture some of the liquid coming out of the plumes and return it to a laboratory? Perhaps there would be lillte Enceladeans swimming around in it.
"Tourists make their way thru the foothill landscapes as if blind to all their best beauty, and like children seek the emphasized mountains..." John Muir
Self Taken Pictures of Wildlife
Self Taken Pictures of Scenery
User avatar
The_Piper
 
Name: Fletch F. Fletch
Posts: 24452
Age: 44
Male

Country: Chainsaw Country
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#3  Postby juju7 » Jul 05, 2018 7:41 am

https://www.evolving-science.com/space/ ... adus-00711

Study Reveals, Signs Of Life Confirmed On Saturn’s Moon, Enceladus
User avatar
juju7
 
Posts: 833

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#4  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 05, 2018 7:49 am

juju7 wrote:https://www.evolving-science.com/space/signs-life-confirmed-saturn-moon-enceladus-00711

Study Reveals, Signs Of Life Confirmed On Saturn’s Moon, Enceladus


Image

What a bullshit, clickbait article title. The article cites precursors of life. Being precursors, these are not signs of life. What kind of idiot would get these aspects confused? I mean, besides the author of the article? What kind of idiot would pay attention to an article like that, having discovered that the article title was clickbait?

What kind of idiot would follow a link posted by juju7, except to point out that the link was clickbait?

Calilasseia wrote:
But in the meantime, we're now an interesting step closer to establishing that life on Enceladus is possible.


Never doubted that it is possible. Who doubts that life is possible on the surface of Venus? I do. I know what the dissociation temperatures of organic molecules are.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 26721
Age: 7
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#5  Postby juju7 » Jul 05, 2018 10:30 am

Cito di Pense wrote: Who doubts that life is possible on the surface of Venus? I do. I know what the dissociation temperatures of organic molecules are.

We are very impressed by your knowledge.

I assume you were referring to decomposition temperatures, rather than dissociation temperatures. :scratch:
User avatar
juju7
 
Posts: 833

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#6  Postby Hermit » Jul 07, 2018 4:05 am

God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 1098
Age: 65
Male

Country: Australia
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#7  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 08, 2018 2:48 pm

What has Microbee got to do with microbes, Hermit? (EDIT: Apart from being a possible tool for studying them.)
PS, re your sig. line: I don't think asserting that "the universe just exists" solves any problems, because it is an abdication of science. We should at least try to understand how it came into existence, rather than throw our hands up in horror at such a difficult task.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 65
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#8  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 08, 2018 2:51 pm

DavidMcC wrote: I don't think asserting that "the universe just exists" solves any problems, because it is an abdication of science. We should at least try to understand how it came into existence, rather than throw our hands up in horror at such a difficult task.

Except it's not an assertion. It's the default position.
You're begging the question that it came into existence at some point.
Unless you can demonstrate that, there's no reason to assume that it did, much less that we need to solve that question.
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Jul 08, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 29035
Age: 29
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#9  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 08, 2018 3:05 pm

I see TE's going for broke, spreading his worthless, off-topic posts all over the fora.
Will no-one tell him to stop?
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 65
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#10  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 08, 2018 3:08 pm

DavidMcC wrote:I see TE's going for broke, spreading his worthless, off-topic posts all over the fora.

Do you really not realise that this blatant lie won't fool anyone?
I responded to your post and adressed a point your raised.
Ergo, the only way my post can be off-topic is if your initial post was.
Meaning that, as per usual, you're acting like a hypocrite.

DavidMcC wrote:Will no-one tell him to stop?

I can't stop doing things i haven't begun to do David.
If you'd deal with your persecution complex and incessant defensive lying, you might have more productive discussions.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 29035
Age: 29
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#11  Postby jamest » Jul 08, 2018 4:43 pm

That microbes which have evolved on earth over billions of years to the point that they can survive extreme temps is not evidence that such microbes might exist on other planets etc. with those sorts of temps. The point of evolution over billions of years on earth is that for the most part there’s been lots of warmth to facilitate the chemical processes.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 17311
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#12  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 08, 2018 6:03 pm

jamest wrote:That microbes which have evolved on earth over billions of years to the point that they can survive extreme temps is not evidence that such microbes might exist on other planets etc. with those sorts of temps. The point of evolution over billions of years on earth is that for the most part there’s been lots of warmth to facilitate the chemical processes.

Warmth and water!
Interesting that you are making better contribution than TE to this thread.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 65
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#13  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 08, 2018 6:25 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
jamest wrote:That microbes which have evolved on earth over billions of years to the point that they can survive extreme temps is not evidence that such microbes might exist on other planets etc. with those sorts of temps. The point of evolution over billions of years on earth is that for the most part there’s been lots of warmth to facilitate the chemical processes.

Warmth and water!
Interesting that you are making better contribution than TE to this thread.

QED, more off-topic personalised remarks as well as a disengenuous attempt to hide the fact that my post was a direct response to yours. Which means that criticising mine for being off-topic or a bad contribution, means your original post was as well.
But do continue to present either profound dishonesty or mental confusion on your part. :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 29035
Age: 29
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#14  Postby Macdoc » Jul 08, 2018 6:58 pm

That microbes which have evolved on earth over billions of years to the point that they can survive extreme temps


Jamest you make an assumption that extremophiles evolved on earth ...that is yet to be completely determined...there is a good hypothesis that earth life could be seeded by interstellar panspermia

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... e-3884354/

Search on panspermia for more detail
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 14085
Age: 71
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#15  Postby jamest » Jul 08, 2018 8:39 pm

I don’t see the point in assuming that life exists beyond Earth in order to prove that life could exist beyond Earth.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 17311
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#16  Postby The_Metatron » Jul 08, 2018 9:25 pm

Tell us the point of assuming it doesn’t.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 20373
Age: 55
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#17  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 08, 2018 9:36 pm

Except that panspermia isn't an "assumption", it's a hypothesis awaiting test. Indeed, finding actual demonstrable microbes on Enceladus will provide a data point allowing a test thereof to be made. Quite simply, once actual microbes are found, the next step is to determine the chemistry underpinning them. If that chemistry is significantly different from the chemistry underpinning Earth based microbes, it reduces the likelihood of panspermia, and in turn points to those microbes being a completely indigenous product of Enceladus, Because any panspermia hypothesis would then have to account for two significantly different chemistries being present in the requisite organisms. And, in addition, account for how the Enceladus variants ended up in a subsurface ocean under tens of kilometres of ice.

Life starts to get interesting, however, if any microbes found on Enceladus not only have a similar chemistry underpinning them, to the point of sharing the presence of DNA and RNA. Gene sequences from those microbes establishing the existence of genes unique to those microbes, still points somewhat more in the direction of indigenous origin than panspermia, but now we have to ask ourselves some interesting questions as to how those microbes acquired that chemistry. Of course, in order to resolve that one, we'll need more data points. For example, microbes on Titan, which, if they exist, are hypothesised to operate via a different chemistry, because there's no liquid water on Titan, but plenty of liquid methane and ethane. Finding microbes on Titan as thus described, would pretty much toss a large spanner into the works for panspermia.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 21817
Age: 56
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#18  Postby jamest » Jul 08, 2018 11:50 pm

The_Metatron wrote:Tell us the point of assuming it doesn’t.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I've not assumed that it doesn't as I'm open to either possibility.

What's important to note is that the diverse physical attributes of all life on Earth have gradually evolved because of the favourable physical conditions on Earth. So, if we find something on Earth that can survive extreme cold this doesn't mean that similar things could exist on other planets exhibiting those kinds of temperatures - unless, for a longggg time, those planets were much warmer and therefore amenable to the process of evolution as happened here on Earth.

Simply finding a planet with a temperature we can find here in Antartica doesn't cut the mustard wrt finding a planet capable of finding life. We need to be finding planets which have had long climatic periods favourable to the evolutionary process itself, which even here on Earth took a long time to kick in. Afaik, only Mars has that potential within our solar system.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 17311
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#19  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 08, 2018 11:55 pm

Actually, one of the reasons Enceladus is considered to be a possible haven for life, is because the moon undergoes tidal heating as a result of the gravitational stresses it encounters in its elliptical orbit. That tidal heating is what produces the liquid subsurface ocean, which is anticipated to be at temperatures somewhat warmer than Antarctica. The most extreme example of this phenomenon is provided by Io, which exhibits a veritable epidemic of sulphurous vulcanism, but that phenomenon affects numerous objects in orbit around Jupiter and Saturn.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 21817
Age: 56
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Microbes On Enceladus?

#20  Postby jamest » Jul 09, 2018 12:19 am

Calilasseia wrote:Actually, one of the reasons Enceladus is considered to be a possible haven for life, is because the moon undergoes tidal heating as a result of the gravitational stresses it encounters in its elliptical orbit. That tidal heating is what produces the liquid subsurface ocean, which is anticipated to be at temperatures somewhat warmer than Antarctica. The most extreme example of this phenomenon is provided by Io, which exhibits a veritable epidemic of sulphurous vulcanism, but that phenomenon affects numerous objects in orbit around Jupiter and Saturn.

That's certainly interesting. I just don't think it's reasonable to form expectations of life on other planets/moons compared to our own dynamic Earth.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 17311
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Biological Sciences

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest