Race and Reality

Evolution, Natural Selection, Medicine, Psychology & Neuroscience.

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Re: Race and Reality

#21  Postby Rumraket » Apr 08, 2018 10:48 am

juju7 wrote:https://aeon.co/essays/race-is-not-real-what-you-see-is-a-power-relationship-made-flesh

Getting rid of racism requires clarity about the nature of the enemy. The way to defeat white supremacy is to destroy it.

What does that mean? To "destroy it"? What is "it" and how do we destroy it? Are we going to drop bombs on someone? Have them fired? Thrown in jail? If so, who exactly? Will that eliminate racism? Reduce it to neglible levels?

I don't know how to get rid of racism, but I'm not impressed by the offering vacuous clichés like that either.
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Re: Race and Reality

#22  Postby Fallible » Apr 08, 2018 11:26 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Were not we all black at one time?
People find that weird to handle. The same as saying to real macho's that they were all women at one time.


No, I was never black.


Where did your ancestors come from then?


They came from Africa originally, the same as everyone else's. That doesn't mean I was black at one time. I can assure you I've always been this colour (celtic (milk bottle white with orange freckles)).
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
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Re: Race and Reality

#23  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 08, 2018 2:11 pm

Like my wife.
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Re: Race and Reality

#24  Postby laklak » Apr 08, 2018 3:18 pm

No living white person was ever black. Like they say, once you go black you never go back.
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Re: Race and Reality

#25  Postby Sendraks » Apr 08, 2018 4:43 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:We aren't our ancestors.


We are our ancestors. Scot is making an important point here.

One of the basic elements of evolution is that an organism possesses the traits held by its ancestors.
Take a load of white europeans to Africa, ensure that they live mostly outdoors (rather than in nicely air conditioned houses) and within a few generations their offspring will be noticeably darker skinned.

The core problem of racism is the refusal to accept that black people and white people are one and the same species. The whole point things like Black History month and Black Lives matter, is to make that point. That they should enjoy the same status in society as white people do.
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Re: Race and Reality

#26  Postby Rumraket » Apr 08, 2018 5:28 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:We aren't our ancestors.


We are our ancestors.

No, we aren't our ancestors. Literally. I can't both be me and not-me at the same time. In the category of things [not-me] you will find my dad, who is my direct ancestor. I am literally not my father.

We are LIKE our ancestors in many respects, but in some other ways we aren't. One of my ancestors was an amphibian. I am not an amphibian. Etc.
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Re: Race and Reality

#27  Postby Rumraket » Apr 08, 2018 5:46 pm

Sendraks wrote:The core problem of racism is the refusal to accept that black people and white people are one and the same species. The whole point things like Black History month and Black Lives matter, is to make that point.

I think some racists accept that we are the same species, yet still deny other races than their own the same rights.

Sendraks wrote:That they should enjoy the same status in society as white people do.

They should enjoy the same status, rights and opportunity in society regardless of any purported differences in the distributions of certain alleles.

Even if some group-differences turn out to be real that SHOULD NOT serve as a justification for discrimination or inequality of rights. Because we already affirm equal rights to people who differ within the same "group".

To pick an example, there is a distribution of heights no matter how you wish to define certain groups. Within any such defined group, there is going to be inequality in performance and appearance of all sorts. Tallness, how hairy you are, left-vs-right handed and so on. We just aren't identical. Even so, we still think we should all have equal rights despite our knowledge that we aren't clones.

In an ironic way, when some anti-racists seek to abolish racist ideologies by denying purported racial differences between certain human ethno-groups, they could almost inadvertently be thought of giving support to racists by implying that if the differences really were real, then racism would have a moral justification.

But racism DOESN'T have a moral justification even IF there are measurable differences among however-you-wish-to-delineate ethnogroups.

The case against racism SHOULD NOT rest on a denial of the reality of certain biological distributions in alleles associated with whatever cognitive or mophological traits racists find to be all-important.
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Re: Race and Reality

#28  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 08, 2018 6:14 pm

There is only one race; the human race.
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Re: Race and Reality

#29  Postby laklak » Apr 08, 2018 8:50 pm

Rumraket wrote: I can't both be me and not-me at the same time.


You're skirting the crumbling edge of the Philosophy sub-forum. Any moment now and someone will come to tell you that the me and not-me you percieve are only manifestatins of the Universal Mind furiously masturbating.
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Re: Race and Reality

#30  Postby Sendraks » Apr 08, 2018 8:54 pm

Rumraket wrote:We are LIKE our ancestors in many respects, but in some other ways we aren't. One of my ancestors was an amphibian. I am not an amphibian. Etc.


I mean it in that sense. Not that we are exactly our ancestors. I meant it in the same way Scot meant it, that we cannot escape our ancestry.
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Re: Race and Reality

#31  Postby Rumraket » Apr 08, 2018 9:18 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Rumraket wrote:We are LIKE our ancestors in many respects, but in some other ways we aren't. One of my ancestors was an amphibian. I am not an amphibian. Etc.


I mean it in that sense. Not that we are exactly our ancestors. I meant it in the same way Scot meant it, that we cannot escape our ancestry.

I have heard this expression before but didn't give it any thought at the time. Now that you say it I'm not sure what you mean by that. What would escaping one's ancestry mean?
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Re: Race and Reality

#32  Postby Sendraks » Apr 08, 2018 10:09 pm

Rumraket wrote: What would escaping one's ancestry mean?


Homo sapiens are chordate, invertebrate, tetrapodal, mammal, primates - we can't stop being any of those things. To escape our ancestry would mean to be not one of those things. Which is impossible.
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Re: Race and Reality

#33  Postby scott1328 » Apr 08, 2018 10:21 pm

SD was echoing the racist trope that dark skin is a more primitive trait than white skin. Whether he mentioned this for racist reasons I’ll leave for others to judge. The current scientific consensus however is that, our australopithecine ancestors had fair skin, even as chimpanzees do.

Dark skin is an adaptation due to hairlessness in an equatorial environment. Fair skin is a reversion to the more primitive state as the species moved into less sun-filled environments.
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Re: Race and Reality

#34  Postby Rumraket » Apr 08, 2018 10:59 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Rumraket wrote: What would escaping one's ancestry mean?


Homo sapiens are chordate, invertebrate, tetrapodal, mammal, primates - we can't stop being any of those things. To escape our ancestry would mean to be not one of those things. Which is impossible.

Okay, I see what you mean. But I think to carry on this discussion would be to derail this thread, but I'll just point out that I don't see why that would be impossible. It hasn't happened for good reasons (it would be extremely unlikely), but I don't see why it couldn't at least in principle.
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Re: Race and Reality

#35  Postby The_Piper » Apr 09, 2018 12:59 am

laklak wrote:
Rumraket wrote: I can't both be me and not-me at the same time.


You're skirting the crumbling edge of the Philosophy sub-forum. Any moment now and someone will come to tell you that the me and not-me you percieve are only manifestatins of the Universal Mind furiously masturbating.


:drunk:

It's basically an absolute certainty that given enough time, future generations of our line will no longer be primates.* I think some of our politicians already have ceased to be chordates. :shifty:

ETA - * assuming we don't blow ourselves up.
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Re: Race and Reality

#36  Postby felltoearth » Apr 09, 2018 1:52 am

laklak wrote:
Rumraket wrote: I can't both be me and not-me at the same time.


You're skirting the crumbling edge of the Philosophy sub-forum. Any moment now and someone will come to tell you that the me and not-me you percieve are only manifestatins of the Universal Mind furiously masturbating.

Strangest circle jerk evuh.
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Re: Race and Reality

#37  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 09, 2018 6:22 am

scott1328 wrote:SD was echoing the racist trope that dark skin is a more primitive trait than white skin.


Reported.
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Re: Race and Reality

#38  Postby Fallible » Apr 09, 2018 6:24 am

Why?
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Race and Reality

#39  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 09, 2018 6:26 am

Why do you ask?
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Re: Race and Reality

#40  Postby Fallible » Apr 09, 2018 6:37 am

Because I want to know why you reported it.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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