Taking responsibility for one's actions

is this possible for a free will denier?

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Taking responsibility for one's actions

#1  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 02, 2017 9:46 pm

I have an unhealthy world view, where all my failings and accomplishments are attributed to genetic and environmental influences beyond my control. If only I could snap out of it and take responsibility for my actions...that feeling of accountability would surely spur me on to take pride and feel guilt about my deeds, leading to improved behavior. Just the thought to take responsibility is all that would be required, but is it possible to take responsibility for something one is not truly in control of? Thoughts?
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#2  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 02, 2017 10:29 pm

On second thoughts, this could well be the greatest problem known to the human race!
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#3  Postby tuco » Jan 02, 2017 10:44 pm

I do not think so, its not the greatest problem.

Greatest problem is idiocy, to paraphrase a classic: two things are infinite, stupidity and the universe, and I am not sure about the universe. Idiocy, ignorance, intolerance, .. though to be honest, I dunno how to measure the greatest.

Lets say tou take responsibility for your actions and lets assume all other, environmental, variables stay the same. What is the next step?

Or better yet, I admit responsibility for everything I've done. No problem for me, its just a thought, its free. It will not fix my roof. It will not fix my former relationship. It will not get me back my dogs.

But but .. what? The show can go on now? I do not think so.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#4  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 02, 2017 10:47 pm

Keep It Real wrote:I have an unhealthyworld view, where all my failings and accomplishments are attributed to genetic and environmental influences beyond my control. If only I could snap out of it and take responsibility for my actions...that feeling of accountability would surely spur me on to take pride and feel guilt about my deeds, leading to improved behavior. Just the thought to take responsibility is all that would be required, but is it possible to take responsibility for something one is not truly in control of? Thoughts?


First, fuck guilt. It is a useless emotion that never did anyone any good but the person trying to control another person.

Second, you ALWAYS have control. Where many people falter is in thinking that "having control" means having absolute control. Every action you do is preceded by a choice, A or B. Sometimes, each choice will be equally simple to do. Other times, one may be more difficult. You're a smoker? If A = smoke a cigarette and B = "don't smoke a cigarette," that may be more difficult, but it isn't impossible. The trick, I think, is recognizing the control you DO have and act on that. In time, you'll learn you have more control than you thought you did, but no one has absolute control. It may appear they do to you, but they don't.

You seem to think in very idealistic terms. Stop that! It never did anyone any good. It may be a carryover from your religious indoctrination. Things are neither good nor bad unless YOU decide they are for YOU. Ask yourself are your expectations of yourself coming from you or are they someone else's expectations of you that you've adopted as your own? You use the word "deeds." Sounds like "doing a good deed." Or, "what an evil deed." Religion? You say "improved behavior?" Again, sounds like living up to someone else's expectations.

While you may have obstacles and challenges that make certain choices difficult for you while the choice is a breeze to someone else, recognize that there are things that you do easily that they find challenging. Sometimes, we also have to accept help in any form that helps us achieve our goals. If depression has you absolutely immobilized and the only way you can function is to take anti-depressants, then ffs, CHOOSE to take the medication! Recognize, with your doctor's assistance that your brain chemistry isn't allowing you to live the life YOU want, accept that you can't choose to not be depressed because of your won physiology. The control that you DO have is in whether or not to take the medication. It isn't cheating. You win! You choose. Take the medication and life is better, if not downright great!! Or don't take the medication and suffer emotional immobilization.

I don't know you well, obviously. So, take my advice with a grain of salt. But it does sound like you're allowing someone else, maybe someone from your distant past, to direct your thoughts. Even this isn't outside your control, but recognizing that influence is essential if it exists.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#5  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 02, 2017 10:52 pm

I was raised an atheist/agnostic. No religious indoctrination in my history. I doubt I would have reached the opinion there is no free will if i had been raised a theist.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#6  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 02, 2017 11:02 pm

PensivePenny wrote: But it does sound like you're allowing someone else, maybe someone from your distant past, to direct your thoughts. Even this isn't outside your control, but recognizing that influence is essential if it exists.


My mother does think like me about personal responsibility, and has perhaps influenced my thinking, but I can't fault her logic. I'm disapointed in my behaviour because I can imagine better behaviour according to my own values, although, of course, I am not ultimately responsible for those either. By "I" I am referring to the perceptual consciousness which experiences my reality, nothing more.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#7  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 02, 2017 11:08 pm

PensivePenny wrote:

First, fuck guilt.


If you fuck guilt, you have to fuck pride too.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#8  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 02, 2017 11:29 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:

First, fuck guilt.


If you fuck guilt, you have to fuck pride too.


Why is that? Does guilt make you feel good?
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#9  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 02, 2017 11:33 pm

PensivePenny wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:

First, fuck guilt.


If you fuck guilt, you have to fuck pride too.


Why is that? Does guilt make you feel good?


If you don't take responsibility for your actions you feel no pride or guilt. If you do take responsibility for your actions you feel pride and guilt. You can't have your cake and eat it too, regardless of how good it feels. At least I can't, if you can handle the cognitive dissonance then that's your...er...attribute.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#10  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 02, 2017 11:38 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:

First, fuck guilt.


If you fuck guilt, you have to fuck pride too.


Why is that? Does guilt make you feel good?


If you don't take responsibility for your actions you feel no pride or guilt. If you do take responsibility for your actions you feel pride and guilt. You can't have your cake and eat it too, regardless of how good it feels. At least I can't, if you can handle the cognitive dissonance then that's your...er...attribute.


Kinda like having good without evil, is it? You've certainly had ONE view impressed upon you. Are you prepared to let it go?

Pride is not the opposite of guilt. Guilt is what one feels when they have done something "wrong" or "bad." Why do you have these notions of good and bad? From whence do they come?
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#11  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 02, 2017 11:46 pm

PensivePenny wrote: Why do you have these notions of good and bad?
You don't?!!!
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#12  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 02, 2017 11:48 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
PensivePenny wrote: Why do you have these notions of good and bad?
You don't?!!!


No. Well, I know what is good and bad for me. But no one decides that but I.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#13  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 02, 2017 11:52 pm

I would contend that your views are formed based on environmental and genetic influences beyond your control...but that's just me.

I too know what's good and bad according to my mind and I fail to live up to my potential because I feel no guilt or pride IMO. That's what this thread is about.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#14  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 02, 2017 11:58 pm

So what is "taking responsibility" to you? I'm not sure I understand your meaning.

If I do something or don't do something, I am responsible. I don't blame others. It is neither a source for guilt or for pride.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#15  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 03, 2017 12:03 am

So you never feel guilt or pride either? If somebody held a loaded gun to your head and said they'd pull the trigger unless you counted to three would you feel responsible if you then counted to three?
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#16  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 03, 2017 12:07 am

Keep It Real wrote:So you never feel guilt or pride either? If somebody held a loaded gun to your head and said they'd pull the trigger unless you counted to three would you feel responsible if you then counted to three?


Oh, I most certainly feel pride.

If someone had a loaded gun to my head, I'd have the choice to count or not, accepting the consequence either way. Perhaps the decision is difficult, but it is still my choice.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#17  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 03, 2017 12:25 am

You wouldn't consider your decision to be massively influenced by an environmental factor beyond your control?
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#18  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 03, 2017 12:35 am

Of course it would be influenced by factors beyond my control. Some day our sun will explode. One day, I will die. Maybe I get a jury notice and have to serve my duty. External factors are always beyond our control. But, within those external factors, you will always have a measure of control.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#19  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 03, 2017 12:41 am

Does a prisoner have the option of walking free? We have no control - we can take no credit for any of our actions; we are not responsible (we being that spark of perceptual consciousness).
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#20  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 03, 2017 12:50 am

A prisoner can choose to read, educate himself, sing, imagine, dream or even ally with other criminals to profit once released. There are always choices within the constraints of our environment and whatever external forces that may exist beyond our control.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
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