The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

Evolution, Natural Selection, Medicine, Psychology & Neuroscience.

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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#41  Postby SafeAsMilk » Oct 16, 2018 11:53 pm

Just A Theory wrote:Chimpanzees & gorillas undoubtedly share a single common ancestor. Linnaeus originally placed humans and chimpanzees in the same genus until the church made him put humans in a separate category.

/thread

Yeah, but you weren't there, so you don't know. Is that how this works, scherado?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#42  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 16, 2018 11:55 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Just A Theory wrote:Chimpanzees & gorillas undoubtedly share a single common ancestor. Linnaeus originally placed humans and chimpanzees in the same genus until the church made him put humans in a separate category.

/thread

Yeah, but you weren't there, so you don't know. Is that how this works, scherado?


laklak wrote:There's some clever metaphysical gotcha in there somewhere. I can smell it.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#43  Postby Just A Theory » Oct 17, 2018 12:35 am

There was an image that kept getting linked over at the old RDF forums. It had a "progression" of skulls between chimpanzees and modern humans and defied people to select the dividing line between the two.

Anyone have that image? I think that our OP may be just the person to present that to.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#44  Postby scherado » Oct 18, 2018 1:25 am

LucidFlight wrote:
scherado wrote:When I registered the apparently unacceptable answer, "I don't know," I was answering the question, Do I know how first-life--whatever form it took--how and by what means did it change into what we now know as the complex human body?


When I read this, I had in my head the monologuing voice of an alien life force from Star Trek: The Next Generation — I'm thinking maybe the first season, where Wesley Crusher can be seen wearing those adorable sweaters, like the one with the rainbow stripes along the top. There is a soft focus about the lens. There is mystery laced with a sense of discovery, drawing us in to the episode that lays ahead. There is anticipation in the air.

I never watched that show. I loved the original as a kid and do enjoy it in re-run. Sorry that I don't get your association.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#45  Postby Just A Theory » Oct 18, 2018 3:32 am

So, no comments on the actual topic of the thread scherado?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#46  Postby scherado » Oct 18, 2018 6:58 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Just A Theory wrote:Chimpanzees & gorillas undoubtedly share a single common ancestor. Linnaeus originally placed humans and chimpanzees in the same genus until the church made him put humans in a separate category.

/thread

Yeah, but you weren't there, so you don't know. Is that how this works, scherado?

What does that mean? Did I miss something?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#47  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 18, 2018 7:06 pm

scherado wrote:Did I miss something?


I don't know. You've been throwing your shit at the wall to see if anything sticks. If you can miss at that range, you can miss anything.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#48  Postby scherado » Oct 18, 2018 7:12 pm

Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:When I'm asked the question, "Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas...?, I'm reminded that several more fundamental questions need to be answered with respect to the mechanism of inheritance. Here I refer to the well-known method of the propagation of genes as "mechanism of inheritance." Obviously.

So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin? I know that there are theories or explanations, though I don't buy them, I'm not persuaded. I think it's nonsense. Perhaps, you could explain?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#49  Postby newolder » Oct 18, 2018 8:33 pm

scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:When I'm asked the question, "Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas...?, I'm reminded that several more fundamental questions need to be answered with respect to the mechanism of inheritance. Here I refer to the well-known method of the propagation of genes as "mechanism of inheritance." Obviously.

So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin? I know that there are theories or explanations, though I don't buy them, I'm not persuaded. I think it's nonsense. Perhaps, you could explain?

Hint: To discuss abiogenesis, don't start a topic about common ancestry. Here's a relevant post that includes an interesting write-up on that topic.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#50  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 18, 2018 9:07 pm

scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:When I'm asked the question, "Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas...?, I'm reminded that several more fundamental questions need to be answered with respect to the mechanism of inheritance. Here I refer to the well-known method of the propagation of genes as "mechanism of inheritance." Obviously.

So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

Which, as I pointed out to you before, has fuck all to do with the title you chose for this thread.

scherado wrote: I know that there are theories or explanations, though I don't buy them, I'm not persuaded. I think it's nonsense. Perhaps, you could explain?

Nope, your personal incredulity and ignorance don't mean you get to expect others to do your work for you.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#51  Postby Rumraket » Oct 18, 2018 9:15 pm

scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:When I'm asked the question, "Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas...?, I'm reminded that several more fundamental questions need to be answered with respect to the mechanism of inheritance. Here I refer to the well-known method of the propagation of genes as "mechanism of inheritance." Obviously.

So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

I don't know but that is completely irrelevant to the question of common ancestry. We are not required to know how life originated to understand how, for example, gorillas and humans evolved from a common ancestor.

I don't need to know how life originated to understand how me and my cousin share common descent. The same is true for humans in general and our primate cousins such as gorillas.

scherado wrote: I know that there are theories or explanations, though I don't buy them, I'm not persuaded. I think it's nonsense. Perhaps, you could explain?

I don't pretend to know how life originated, and I don't see it's relevance to whether primates share common ancestry. They do, and we know this beyond all reasonable doubt.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#52  Postby scherado » Oct 18, 2018 9:23 pm

Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:When I'm asked the question, "Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas...?, I'm reminded that several more fundamental questions need to be answered with respect to the mechanism of inheritance. Here I refer to the well-known method of the propagation of genes as "mechanism of inheritance." Obviously.

So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

I don't know but that is completely irrelevant to the question of common ancestry. ...

Yes you don't know, that's correct. I asked how the inheritance mechanism came into existence. Plainly, clearly
I will type very slowly in the off-chance that it will help: How did the inheritance mechanism originate?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#53  Postby scherado » Oct 18, 2018 9:27 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:When I'm asked the question, "Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas...?, I'm reminded that several more fundamental questions need to be answered with respect to the mechanism of inheritance. Here I refer to the well-known method of the propagation of genes as "mechanism of inheritance." Obviously.

So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

Which, as I pointed out to you before, has fuck all to do with the title you chose for this thread.
...

Tell me, how did the inheritance mechanism originate?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#54  Postby theropod » Oct 18, 2018 9:31 pm

Imperfect replicators?

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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#55  Postby Rumraket » Oct 18, 2018 9:32 pm

scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

I don't know but that is completely irrelevant to the question of common ancestry. ...

Yes you don't know, that's correct. I asked how the inheritance mechanism came into existence. Plainly, clearly
I will type very slowly in the off-chance that it will help: How did the inheritance mechanism originate?

I don't know. Nobody knows. It's being investigated.

Now, what has that got to do with common descent?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#56  Postby Rumraket » Oct 18, 2018 9:33 pm

scherado wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

Which, as I pointed out to you before, has fuck all to do with the title you chose for this thread.
...

Tell me, how did the inheritance mechanism originate?

Nobody knows. It's being investigated.

Now, what has that got to do with common descent?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#57  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 18, 2018 9:46 pm

scherado wrote:
Tell me, how did the inheritance mechanism originate?


Well, you could, for example, start with determining how the strong and elecroweak interactions separated during the quark epoch. You know, if chemistry is not your strong suit.

Fiddling with origins is not quite as straightforward as you might want to pretend.

scherado wrote:I asked how the inheritance mechanism came into existence.


It's not known. What is known is that biochemical reactions are quite diverse and complex because of the electronic structures of the atoms that form organic and biochemical molecules.

Cutting edge research by scientists investigating stages of abiogenesis is all over the place, but if you can't understand what you read, it will all seem like a lot of magic to you.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#58  Postby Regina » Oct 18, 2018 9:48 pm

scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

I don't know but that is completely irrelevant to the question of common ancestry. ...

Yes you don't know, that's correct. I asked how the inheritance mechanism came into existence. Plainly, clearly
I will type very slowly in the off-chance that it will help: How did the inheritance mechanism originate?

Too bad the slow typing did not help you at all, but on the off chance that you will take it to heart: condescension is unbecoming when one struggles with expressing oneself.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#59  Postby scherado » Oct 18, 2018 9:49 pm

Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:
Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

I don't know but that is completely irrelevant to the question of common ancestry. ...

Yes you don't know, that's correct. I asked how the inheritance mechanism came into existence. Plainly, clearly
I will type very slowly in the off-chance that it will help: How did the inheritance mechanism originate?

I don't know. Nobody knows. It's being investigated.

Now, what has that got to do with common descent?

Are you serious? I have no issue with common descent. I might not really care about it at all. What I do care about is the origin of the inheritance mechanism. Eh? Isn't that the larger question? No? YES!
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#60  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 18, 2018 9:56 pm

scherado wrote:What I do care about is the origin of the inheritance mechanism.


You don't even understand the inheritance mechanism, do you? In that case,you're asking the wrong question.

It doesn't matter how much you care about it if you can't understand what you read. If it can't be dumbed down enough for you to be able to understand it, you'll never get a foothold in understanding the state of research in this field. I seriously doubt you will ever be able to discuss this topic intelligently, and you're going to have to take the first steps in demonstrating that you can understand any chemistry whatsoever. Otherwise, your question might just be the noise coming from an empty barrel.
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