The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#61  Postby Alan B » Oct 18, 2018 10:08 pm

scherado wrote:Tell me, how did the inheritance mechanism originate?

V-e-r-y g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y by adapting to changing environmental conditions such that an organism can claim similarities and properties to a distant ancestor which survived in conditions not conducive to the later organism.

Well, that's one possible explanation - maybe. :dunno:

Now, scherado, define 'common descent' and 'inheritance mechanism'. Then explain precisely what the differences are.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#62  Postby Rumraket » Oct 18, 2018 10:10 pm

scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
I don't know but that is completely irrelevant to the question of common ancestry. ...

Yes you don't know, that's correct. I asked how the inheritance mechanism came into existence. Plainly, clearly
I will type very slowly in the off-chance that it will help: How did the inheritance mechanism originate?

I don't know. Nobody knows. It's being investigated.

Now, what has that got to do with common descent?

Are you serious?

Yes.

I have no issue with common descent. I might not really care about it at all.

Okay, good for you. But in your OP you seemed to be saying that before anyone can consider common descent they first have to explain the origin of life. In fact the title you gave this thread is "The meaning of common ancestry and what is missing".

I'm glad to see that was not your intended meaning as that would have been silly.

What I do care about is the origin of the inheritance mechanism. Eh? Isn't that the larger question? No? YES!

It is certainly an interesting question in it's own right. And it's an area of active investigation. We still don't know. Is there some point you wish to make besides just asking how life originated?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#63  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 18, 2018 10:11 pm

Alan B wrote:
scherado wrote:Tell me, how did the inheritance mechanism originate?

V-e-r-y g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y by adapting to changing environmental conditions such that an organism can claim similarities and properties to a distant ancestor which survived in conditions not conducive to the later organism.

Well, that's one possible explanation - maybe. :dunno:

Now, scherado, define 'common descent' and 'inheritance mechanism'. Then explain precisely what the differences are.


Alan, there were not any organisms present when the inheritance mechanism started self-replicating.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#64  Postby Alan B » Oct 18, 2018 10:26 pm

I sense an 'out of one's depth' feeling coming on.

I shall do some more reading. But not now I'm off to bed!
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#65  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 18, 2018 10:29 pm

Alan B wrote:I sense an 'out of one's depth' feeling coming on.

I shall do some more reading. But not now I'm off to bed!


The only ones really out of their depth are the ones who won't tackle any difficult reading in trying to answer their questions.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#66  Postby Just A Theory » Oct 18, 2018 10:30 pm

Fortunately scherado, others have actually asked the same question. One of my favourite papers (although it's a bit dated now) is by Richard Dawkins and is titled The Evolution of Evolvability.

Knock yourself out.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#67  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 18, 2018 10:32 pm

Just A Theory wrote:Fortunately scherado others have actually asked the same question. One of my favourite papers (although it's a bit dated now) is by Richard Dawkins and is titled The Evolution of Evolvability.

Knock yourself out.


I know, I know. In the appendices for "The Blind Watchmaker", Dawkins put his thinking to work on the problem. What was that, thirty years ago? I'm guessing scherado hasn't read that one, and will stick for the time being with "The Tyrrany of Words".
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#68  Postby Fenrir » Oct 18, 2018 11:55 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Alan B wrote:I sense an 'out of one's depth' feeling coming on.

I shall do some more reading. But not now I'm off to bed!


The only ones really out of their depth are the ones who won't tackle any difficult reading in trying to answer their questions.


Ceptin of course that they may only be half out of their depth, and consequently half in. But only if they are turtles, of course.

Course they could be half turtle and half tortoise, that might cause issues.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#69  Postby laklak » Oct 19, 2018 2:55 am

Turtles. They're all over the place.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#70  Postby Hermit » Oct 19, 2018 3:13 am

laklak wrote:Turtles. They're all over the place.

And when applied to abiogenesis they go all the way down.

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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#71  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 19, 2018 5:07 am

Fenrir wrote:

Course they could be half turtle and half tortoise, that might cause issues.


Ah, the old shell game.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#72  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 19, 2018 5:11 am

laklak wrote:Turtles. They're all over the place.


Image
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#73  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 19, 2018 6:48 am

scherado wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
scherado wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas? ...

Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

Which, as I pointed out to you before, has fuck all to do with the title you chose for this thread.
...

Tell me, how did the inheritance mechanism originate?

Tell me, how does rain work. See, I can ask non-sequitur questions too.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#74  Postby scherado » Oct 19, 2018 8:49 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Just A Theory wrote:Fortunately scherado others have actually asked the same question. One of my favourite papers (although it's a bit dated now) is by Richard Dawkins and is titled The Evolution of Evolvability.

Knock yourself out.


I know, I know. In the appendices for "The Blind Watchmaker", Dawkins put his thinking to work on the problem. What was that, thirty years ago? I'm guessing scherado hasn't read that one, and will stick for the time being with "The Tyrrany of Words".

No, scherado will read the beginning of the content at the link, see "random mutation", then that the inheritance mechanism is "poof" there without account--it is GIVEN to exist.

Really.

Nice try. We all know that the origination of the inheritance mechanism is what needs to be explained.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#75  Postby scherado » Oct 19, 2018 8:51 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
scherado wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
scherado wrote:
Sorry for the delay.

What I meant by, "more fundamental questions," is this: We have a fine understanding of inheritance mechanism(s), but, the question remains, how the bleep did such a mechanism come into existence, that is, what is the origin?

Which, as I pointed out to you before, has fuck all to do with the title you chose for this thread.
...

Tell me, how did the inheritance mechanism originate?

Tell me, how does rain work. See, I can ask non-sequitur questions too.

Goodbye. Zero. Less than, even.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#76  Postby Regina » Oct 19, 2018 8:56 pm

scherado wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Just A Theory wrote:Fortunately scherado others have actually asked the same question. One of my favourite papers (although it's a bit dated now) is by Richard Dawkins and is titled The Evolution of Evolvability.

Knock yourself out.


I know, I know. In the appendices for "The Blind Watchmaker", Dawkins put his thinking to work on the problem. What was that, thirty years ago? I'm guessing scherado hasn't read that one, and will stick for the time being with "The Tyrrany of Words".

No, scherado will read the beginning of the content at the link, see "random mutation", then that the inheritance mechanism is "poof" there without account--it is GIVEN to exist.

Really.

Nice try. We all know that the origination of the inheritance mechanism is what needs to be explained.

Maybe you should try and relax a bit? It's always a bad, bad sign when people start referring to themselves in the third person.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#77  Postby laklak » Oct 19, 2018 9:18 pm

Laklak agrees.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#78  Postby scherado » Oct 19, 2018 9:39 pm

Regina wrote:...
Maybe you should try and relax a bit? It's always a bad, bad sign when people start referring to themselves in the third person.

Well, if you don't think that the question of the origin of the well-understood inheritance mechanism is what's "missing", then you and I have nothing to discuss.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#79  Postby SafeAsMilk » Oct 19, 2018 9:51 pm

It's your problem that you're stuck on something being missing. It's because you need it to be missing. Folks who've given it even a moment's thought just accept that the answer probably isn't going to be "magic fairies did it".
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#80  Postby Regina » Oct 19, 2018 10:07 pm

scherado wrote:
Regina wrote:...
Maybe you should try and relax a bit? It's always a bad, bad sign when people start referring to themselves in the third person.

Well, if you don't think that the question of the origin of the well-understood inheritance mechanism is what's "missing", then you and I have nothing to discuss.

You are absolutely right, we have nothing to discuss. And that's because I am not a biologist and nor are you, going by what I read here. Exchanging "opinions" on stuff people aren't experts in is a popular enterprise, especially on the internet, but nonetheless a waste of time and a surefire way of embarrassing oneself in the eyes of experts in the relevant field.
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