The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

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The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#1  Postby scherado » Oct 15, 2018 8:27 pm

The nested quotes below can the found ==>there.

I was asked whether I believe that humans and gorillas share a common ancestor. I did not answer the question directly, which I will do below, I hope. Note that "Keep It Real" did not answer my question, [W]hat form will life off Earth take?

Keep It Real wrote:Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas scherado?

scherado wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
scherado wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:So that would be a "no" then. Didn't see that coming, much.

No. I didn't respond "no".

Is there something wrong with you? Which of the words did you not comprehend in, "I do not know."

I ask you outright, what form will life off Earth take? I bet it's too much for you to consider.


You do not think that humans and gorillas share a common ancestor, you "don't know" which is a negative ("no" or to put it another way "no, I don't know") to the question posed.

You, apparently, are one of those people who can't abide uncertainty. That's your problem, not mine. I've examined things over many years, I'm 57, and when I declare, "I don't know," it's after extensive consideration, decades. I'm not one of those Agnostics who hasn't labored over the evidence and just quits thinking.

I've seen the evidence and think there's something missing or unknown. Capice?

Keep It Real wrote:EDIT: what's missing?

When I wrote, "there's something missing or unknown," I was referring to the Theory of Biological Evolution, as it exists, meaning in whatever form the theory took last I checked.

When K I R asked me about common ancestry with gorillas, she made reference to a very specific claim--I won't use "speculation"--about the respective, genetic histories of what we consider to be two species.

The essential question remains unanswered no matter the truth-value of the ancestral claim. ("truth-value"==Whether it is true or false.)

There is the question, unanswered I assert, as to the origin of life on Earth ("Abiogenisis"?). This I know to be outside the scope of Biological Evolution.

Then there is the question of whether and how that first-life changed over time, immense time, into other forms and if so, then what mechanisms of change were responsible for the transformations (Theory of Biological Evolution)?

When I registered the apparently unacceptable answer, "I don't know," I was answering the question, Do I know how first-life--whatever form it took--how and by what means did it change into what we now know as the complex human body? Let us all agree on the existence of our complex bodies(1)--though we don't yet know everything about them(2). We should all agree on this second point as well. (I offer as one example of what has yet to be determined, whether the human body has a "soul.")

When I'm asked the question, "Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas...?, I'm reminded that several more fundamental questions need to be answered with respect to the mechanism of inheritance. Here I refer to the well-known method of the propagation of genes as "mechanism of inheritance." Obviously.

I'll stop here to determine whether anyone understands.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#2  Postby newolder » Oct 15, 2018 8:46 pm

Did you follow the link posted at the end of this reply?
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#3  Postby Rumraket » Oct 15, 2018 9:09 pm

scherado wrote:When I'm asked the question, "Do you think humans share a common ancestor with gorillas...?, I'm reminded that several more fundamental questions need to be answered with respect to the mechanism of inheritance. Here I refer to the well-known method of the propagation of genes as "mechanism of inheritance." Obviously.

So what do you think is missing from what we know about the propagation of genes in order to be able infer the common descent of humans and gorillas?

I'm not aware that this branching of humans and gorillas from a common ancestor is required to have involved any unusual genetic phenomena not routinely observed to take place during meiosis and mitosis. Can you think of any genetic differences between humans and gorillas that somehow defy our knowledge of how cells replicate their genomes and recombine them during sexual reproduction?

And I'd be interested to know if you understood the article linked in the previous post.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#4  Postby SafeAsMilk » Oct 15, 2018 9:18 pm

scherado wrote:When I registered the apparently unacceptable answer, "I don't know," I was answering the question, Do I know how first-life--whatever form it took--how and by what means did it change into what we now know as the complex human body?

Then you weren't answering the question, which was incredibly straightforward and made no mention whatsoever of "first-life" or whatever. If you don't know the answer to his actual question, that's fine. As newolder has pointed out, there's plenty of info out there if you wish to have an informed view of the topic.

Let us all agree on the existence of our complex bodies(1)--though we don't yet know everything about them(2). We should all agree on this second point as well. (I offer as one example of what has yet to be determined, whether the human body has a "soul.")

It's true, we haven't determined that a soul, something which has been asserted to exist without any evidence whatsoever, resides in the human body. Not sure what that has to do with anything, though, since we were talking about common ancestry, which not only has evidence, it also refers to things that actually observably exist.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#5  Postby LucidFlight » Oct 15, 2018 9:36 pm

scherado wrote:When I registered the apparently unacceptable answer, "I don't know," I was answering the question, Do I know how first-life--whatever form it took--how and by what means did it change into what we now know as the complex human body?


When I read this, I had in my head the monologuing voice of an alien life force from Star Trek: The Next Generation — I'm thinking maybe the first season, where Wesley Crusher can be seen wearing those adorable sweaters, like the one with the rainbow stripes along the top. There is a soft focus about the lens. There is mystery laced with a sense of discovery, drawing us in to the episode that lays ahead. There is anticipation in the air.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#6  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 15, 2018 9:40 pm

scherado wrote:
There is the question, unanswered I assert, as to the origin of life on Earth ("Abiogenisis"?). This I know to be outside the scope of Biological Evolution.

If you know it's irrelevant to the question being asked, why do you bring it up in the first place? :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#7  Postby Fenrir » Oct 15, 2018 9:42 pm

OP: "soul"

ME: "no more questions your honour"
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#8  Postby Macdoc » Oct 15, 2018 9:46 pm

and in conclusion ...."He is indeed certifiable." :coffee:
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#9  Postby scherado » Oct 15, 2018 9:59 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
scherado wrote:
There is the question, unanswered I assert, as to the origin of life on Earth ("Abiogenisis"?). This I know to be outside the scope of Biological Evolution.

If you know it's irrelevant to the question being asked, why do you bring it up in the first place? :roll:

You, sir, have stepped in it, and I mean the feces.

I, simply--I thought--was demonstrating that I have knowledge of the separation of the two: 1) the question of first-life; 2) Biological Evolution, the theory. There is much to be gleaned from this separation. No? Yes.

You have been added to my list, which I won't name or describe, other than to tell you that the first word of this list appears in this post.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#10  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 15, 2018 10:04 pm

scherado wrote:There is much to be gleaned from this separation.


Not unless you're a vitalist. If you're not a vitalist, you're capable of viewing life as a self-replicating system of coupled non-linear chemical reactions within some sort of mass/energy balance control volume, and subject to selection effects due to differential success in replication. Capsicum?

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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#11  Postby LucidFlight » Oct 15, 2018 10:14 pm

scherado wrote:You have been added to my list, which I won't name or describe, other than to tell you that the first word of this list appears in this post.


scherado's list:
  1. Thomas Eshuis
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#12  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 15, 2018 10:14 pm

scherado wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
scherado wrote:
There is the question, unanswered I assert, as to the origin of life on Earth ("Abiogenisis"?). This I know to be outside the scope of Biological Evolution.

If you know it's irrelevant to the question being asked, why do you bring it up in the first place? :roll:

You, sir, have stepped in it, and I mean the feces.

Oh look, more condescending nonsense. I told you were you can stick that.

scherado wrote:I, simply--I thought--was demonstrating that I have knowledge of the separation of the two: 1) the question of first-life; 2) Biological Evolution, the theory. There is much to be gleaned from this separation. No? Yes.

The question was whether you believe that humans and gorillas share a common ancestor.
Nothing in that question requires you to mention much less discuss abiogenisis in any way.

scherado wrote:You have been added to my list, which I won't name or describe, other than to tell you that the first word of this list appears in this post.

Is that supposed to mean someting to me? If you're not just trolling and your posts are intended to be genuine, then I advise you to stop acting so arrogant and condescending.
My money's on trolling though. :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#13  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 15, 2018 10:16 pm

LucidFlight wrote:
scherado wrote:You have been added to my list, which I won't name or describe, other than to tell you that the first word of this list appears in this post.


scherado's list:
  1. Unkown individual
  2. Thomas Eshuis

FIFY.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#14  Postby Thommo » Oct 15, 2018 10:18 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
LucidFlight wrote:
scherado wrote:You have been added to my list, which I won't name or describe, other than to tell you that the first word of this list appears in this post.


scherado's list:
  1. Unkown individual
  2. Thomas Eshuis

FIFY.


You raise an interesting question though. Is it valid to assume a list with no entries is not, in fact, already a list? Perhaps it could be called the empty list.

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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#15  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 15, 2018 10:19 pm

scherado wrote:the first word of this list appears in this post.


Oh, come on, scherado. The word you're dying to write doesn't appear in that post. Do you believe it's a bad word? Don't just subvocalize it. Express it proudly, the same way you write 'soul'.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#16  Postby SafeAsMilk » Oct 15, 2018 11:45 pm

scherado wrote:
I, simply--I thought--was demonstrating that I have knowledge of the separation of the two: 1) the question of first-life; 2) Biological Evolution, the theory. There is much to be gleaned from this separation. No? Yes.

The easiest way to demonstrate this understanding would be to not mention it, unbidden, in the context of a question that has nothing to do with it. All we've managed to glean, I think, is that you felt the need to talk about it.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#17  Postby scherado » Oct 16, 2018 12:10 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
scherado wrote:There is much to be gleaned from this separation.

Not unless you're a vitalist. If you're not a vitalist, you're capable of viewing life as a self-replicating system of coupled non-linear chemical reactions within some sort of mass/energy balance control volume, and subject to selection effects due to differential success in replication. Capsicum? ...]

No, no, three times no. The separation that I mean is the contrived separation made by those who made the separation. You might want to re-read my post.

When I told you--in my hello intro--that I spent 2 years informally debating these things on the "fairytale" website, I wasn't whistling dixxie.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#18  Postby scherado » Oct 16, 2018 12:14 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:...
Is that supposed to mean someting to me? If you're not just trolling and your posts are intended to be genuine, then I advise you to stop acting so arrogant and condescending.
...

My advice to you is to STOP reading my posts.
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#19  Postby scherado » Oct 16, 2018 12:15 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
scherado wrote:the first word of this list appears in this post.


Oh, come on, scherado. The word you're dying to write doesn't appear in that post. Do you believe it's a bad word? Don't just subvocalize it. Express it proudly, the same way you write 'soul'.

Uhhhh. the word DOES appear in the post!!!
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Re: The Meaning of Common Ancestry and What Is Missing

#20  Postby scherado » Oct 16, 2018 12:17 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
scherado wrote:
I, simply--I thought--was demonstrating that I have knowledge of the separation of the two: 1) the question of first-life; 2) Biological Evolution, the theory. There is much to be gleaned from this separation. No? Yes.

The easiest way to demonstrate this understanding would be to not mention it, unbidden, in the context of a question that has nothing to do with it. All we've managed to glean, I think, is that you felt the need to talk about it.

Is there a block list employed on this forum?
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