Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

Can anyone tell me about dissidents who died after they refused or stopped treatment?

Understanding the basis and treatment of disease.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#61  Postby Papa Smurf » Jun 08, 2018 7:09 am

Hercule wrote:I was making the point that there are legitimate doubts and questions about HIV and AIDS that are close to heresy in the mainstream.


That video did not in any way support the point you are now trying to make. And it's well known and understood that (at least for some pathogens) the severity and location of the infection (ie. how many pathogens enter your body and where) can have a great influence on whether your immune system is able to fend of the invaders and as a consequence whether you get sick or not.

For instance, you can get septic shock and die from something like streptococcus if it enters your bloodstream (for example by entering through damaged skin) even though you might have a large colony of streptococcus in your oral cavities where they often have no ill effect whatsoever.

Finally, if you are very lucky and your immune system was able to fully exterminate the HIV when it entered your body you are no longer infected with HIV so obviously you wouldn't develop AIDS. This would not weaken the link between HIV and AIDS in any way.

I'm off on holiday so no more responses from me.
User avatar
Papa Smurf
 
Posts: 300

Netherlands (nl)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#62  Postby NNY » Jun 08, 2018 11:36 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Detection. How does it work?


I should probably thank you for your little rant, due to what I found out about AIDS
And it is far more interesting than what I had last heard on the subject years ago and my memory of it was obviously wrong also.

But before explaining about AIDS I'll explain the initial question.

How do T cells "see?"

Previously I thought T cells produced antibodies on the surface of their cell (by way of a process I had no idea about) and these antibodies attached themselves to an antigen so the T cell could destroyed that antigen. But it is only the B cell that produces antibodies on its cell surface, which then attach themselves to an antigen, in order to make antibodies for that specific antigen, and then releases those antibodies into the blood stream. B cells do not destroy an antigen though, they just produce antibodies.

The released antibodies then attach themselves to the specific antigen's they were made for and the T killer cell then attaches itself to the antibody and kills the antigen.

The "seeing" is when the protein chain at the tip of an antibody bumps into an antigen and attaches itself to that antigen. This is a random process but works due to the shear numbers of antibodies that have been released into the body which are constantly bumping into everything as they travel around the blood and body. When the tip of the antibody bumps into a certain part of the antigen and if the shape of the tip of the antibody fits nicely and neatly into that part of the antigen, plus as long as forces such as Van der Vaals forces and hydrogen bonding forces allow the antigen and antibody to lock into place, "seeing" has occurred. This same process allows the T killer cell to attach itself to the antibody, so the antigen can be destroyed.

I did read up on the whole process of how antibodies are produced and attach themselves to antigens, but it would take too much time and effort to explain everything involved. But the process of "seeing" isn't too different to what I initially thought, I was 100% incorrect in that I thought antibodies were on the surface of the T killer cell though.

But where I was incredibly wrong is how HIV causes AIDS. I thought the HIV infected and killed all the T helper cells, but this is not the case.

A very brief summary of how the body reacts to HIV
The most interesting part of what I read was that HIV infection only accounts for about 5% of all T helper cell deaths, the remaining 95% of T helper cell deaths occur by way of pyroptosis (cell death by way of inflammation) with these cells not being infected by HIV. Although HIV has not infected these 95% of cells, HIV is indirectly responsibly for the death of these cells.

Before reading up on this, I thought HIV infected a T helper cell and then destroyed the cell, after replicating itself, when the newly produced HIV were released into the body. But this is not the case for RNA viruses. Although HIV infects the T helper cell to reproduce itself, the newly created HIV escape through the membrane of the T helper cell without destroying it. When the T helper cell does get destroyed, due to HIV infection, it is though various forms of apoptosis (self destruction) or a T killer cell will kill the infected T helper cell by detecting antibodies that have placed themselves on the surface of the infected T helper cell. But these forms of destruction account for only 5% of all T helper cells deaths.

95% of T helper cell deaths occur in the lymph glands. Because T cells are constantly entering end exiting the lymph gland, there is a very heavy concentration of T cells in the lymph gland. The process where by the deaths occur is: When an abortive T helper cell (a cell not infected by HIV but has HIV proteins in on on it) enters a lymph gland and self destructs by way of pyroptosis (a form of cellular self destruction induced by inflammation) it releases cytokines (which induce inflation in cells) on mass which intern induce inflation in surrounding T helper cell which also undergo pyroptosis and release even more cytokines and so on. This creates an destructive cycle of T helper cell pyroptosis induced again and again by the constant release of cytokines. And this accounts for 95% of helper T cell destruction in AIDS patients.

So the HIV doesn't actually destroy the T helper cell 95% of the time, HIV is only responsible for T helper cell death 5% of the time, and this 5% is due to cellular self destruction. So theoretically HIV doesn't destroy any cells at all, but HIV is indirectly responsible for 100% of the T helper cell deaths. To say HIV doesn't destroy T helper cells without an explanation would be incredibly misleading.

References:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4047036/
https://aidsinfo.nih.gov/understanding- ... life-cycle
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... figure/F5/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4835240/
NNY
 
Name: none yet
Posts: 26

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#63  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 11:58 am

NNY wrote:So the HIV doesn't actually destroy the T helper cell 95% of the time, HIV is only responsible for T helper cell death 5% of the time, and this 5% is due to cellular self destruction.


Cite for this, specifically, because that result would be interesting.

NNY wrote:The most interesting part of what I read was that HIV infection only accounts for about 5% of all T helper cell deaths, the remaining 95% of T helper cell deaths occur by way of pyroptosis (cell death by way of inflammation) with these cells not being infected by HIV.


Cite, specifically, and quote the relevant conclusions.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jun 08, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Fay Smask
Posts: 29356
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#64  Postby NNY » Jun 08, 2018 12:02 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
NNY wrote:So the HIV doesn't actually destroy the T helper cell 95% of the time, HIV is only responsible for T helper cell death 5% of the time, and this 5% is due to cellular self destruction.


Cite for this, specifically, because that result would be interesting.


They are in the references:
eg: ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4047036/
We now show that caspase-3-mediated apoptosis accounts for the death of only a small fraction of productively infected cells. The remaining >95% of quiescent lymphoid CD4 T-cells die by caspase-1-mediated pyroptosis triggered by abortive viral infection
NNY
 
Name: none yet
Posts: 26

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#65  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 12:03 pm

NNY wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
NNY wrote:So the HIV doesn't actually destroy the T helper cell 95% of the time, HIV is only responsible for T helper cell death 5% of the time, and this 5% is due to cellular self destruction.


Cite for this, specifically, because that result would be interesting.


They are in the references:
eg: ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4047036/
We now show that caspase-3-mediated apoptosis accounts for the death of only a small fraction of productively infected cells. The remaining >95% of quiescent lymphoid CD4 T-cells die by caspase-1-mediated pyroptosis triggered by abortive viral infection


Are you sure that relates to HIV-induced AIDs? Can you demonstrate how it does? What are "productively infected cells"? I think you're quoting stuff you don't really understand. You're citing a very complicated system, and it's up to you to show you understand it.

The remaining >95% of quiescent lymphoid CD4 T-cells die by caspase-1-mediated pyroptosis triggered by abortive viral infection.


How does that mean that an HIV induced infection is not a result of HIV?
NNY wrote:[To say HIV doesn't destroy T helper cells without an explanation would be incredibly misleading.


Who's saying that? And what would it mean if they did?
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jun 08, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Fay Smask
Posts: 29356
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#66  Postby NNY » Jun 08, 2018 12:09 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
NNY wrote:
Are you sure that relates to HIV-induced AIDs? Can you demonstrate how it does? What are "productively infected cells"? I think you're quoting stuff you don't really understand.


"productively infected cells" are cells that have the full compliment of RNA in them and that RNA is able to insert itself into the cells DNA so that it can be reproducer using the host cells DNA.

"abortive cells" only have parts of the invading pathogen in them.
NNY
 
Name: none yet
Posts: 26

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#67  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 12:11 pm

NNY wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Are you sure that relates to HIV-induced AIDs? Can you demonstrate how it does? What are "productively infected cells"? I think you're quoting stuff you don't really understand.


"productively infected cells" are cells that have the full compliment of RNA in them and that RNA is able to insert itself into the cells DNA so that it can be reproducer using the host cells DNA.

"abortive cells" only have parts of the invading pathogen in them.


Can you say how that works?

Does any of that show that HIV does not lead to AIDS? Be specific. I'm still really curious why some people believe that HIV infection does not develop into AIDS.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Fay Smask
Posts: 29356
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#68  Postby NNY » Jun 08, 2018 12:22 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
NNY wrote:

Can you say how that works?

Does any of that show that HIV does not lead to AIDS? Be specific.


HIV does lead to AIDS.
The problem is, HIV does not directly destroy a cell. RNA viruses normally don't destroy cells, and HIV follows this rule.

But the immune response to HIV is what is destroying the cells. Eg: for the 5% of cell deaths, the cell self destructs because it detects HIV antigens inside the cell, so the cell destroys itself before the HIV can reproduce in the cell.

For the remaining 95% of the self destructing cells, the cause for their self destruction is by series of inter-cellular events that lead to pyroptosis. But to explain that series of events would be really time exhuming. But they are initiated in the lymph glands by the release of massive amounts of cytokines. The reason why the lymph glands are important to mention is, this is where T helper cells concentrate in large numbers.
NNY
 
Name: none yet
Posts: 26

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#69  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 12:24 pm

NNY wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

Can you say how that works?

Does any of that show that HIV does not lead to AIDS? Be specific.


HIV does lead to AIDS.
The problem is, HIV does not directly destroy a cell. RNA viruses normally don't destroy cells, and HIV follows this rule.


I don't think there is anything mysterious about this. We know of a number of mechanisms that destroy cells. Are you talking about the T cells? Why don't you think there's a model for how they are destroyed? Or not, if they are not destroyed?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Fay Smask
Posts: 29356
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#70  Postby NNY » Jun 08, 2018 12:37 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
I don't think there is anything mysterious about this. We know of a number of mechanisms that destroy cells. Are you talking about the T cells? Why don't you think there's a model for how they are destroyed? Or not, if they are not destroyed?


I don't think RNA viruses only infect T helper cells.

The reason why HIV only infects T helper cells is due to gp120 protein on the surface of the HIV attaches to the CD4 protein on the surface of the T helper cell. And then after that, the gp120 also attaches itself to the CCR5 protein which allows the HIV to burrow into the T helper cell.

What do you mean by "Why don't you think there's a model for how they are destroyed?"
If you mean the cell is not destroyed by the HIV, this is because the HIV does not destroy the cell. I can't find anything about the HIV destroying the cell.

But the cell does destroy itself, in order to stop the HIV from multiplying.
NNY
 
Name: none yet
Posts: 26

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#71  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 12:41 pm

NNY wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
I don't think there is anything mysterious about this. We know of a number of mechanisms that destroy cells. Are you talking about the T cells? Why don't you think there's a model for how they are destroyed? Or not, if they are not destroyed?


I don't think RNA viruses only infect T helper cells.

The reason why HIV only infects T helper cells is due to gp120 protein on the surface of the HIV attaches to the CD4 protein on the surface of the T helper cell. And then after that, the gp120 also attaches itself to the CCR5 protein which allows the HIV to burrow into the T helper cell.

What do you mean by "Why don't you think there's a model for how they are destroyed?"
If you mean the cell is not destroyed by the HIV, this is because the HIV does not destroy the cell. I can't find anything about the HIV destroying the cell.

But the cell does destroy itself, in order to stop the HIV from multiplying.


Do you think any of that shows that HIV does not lead to AIDS?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Fay Smask
Posts: 29356
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#72  Postby NNY » Jun 08, 2018 1:09 pm

If the 5% of all HIV induced cellular deaths could not be replaced faster than their self destruction then that might lead to AIDS. But that is not the case. But I don't know the rate of T helper cell production nor the rate of T helper cell apoptosis .

Due to the fact that 95% of the T help cell deaths occur in the lymph gland. The notes in Figure 5 of https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4835240/ explain in better detail the cycle of infection, reinfection and inflammation re-inflammation that occurs. and the fact that this is where the T helper cells concentrate on mass, I can imagine how the cycle of T helper cell destruction can occur over time. But if the T helper cells never found a place where they could concentrate in large numbers, then I think HIV would not cause a problem.

I'm not a scientist, so it's hard for me to reach a scientific conclusion. All I have done is summarize what I have read into a few short sentences.

For me, I believe what I have read. But I can understand how the false rumor of HIV not causing AIDS has started, that's why I put the statement about HIV not actually killing T helper host cells in my original response.
NNY
 
Name: none yet
Posts: 26

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#73  Postby jsctro » Oct 12, 2020 12:47 am

I'm the sister of James Scutero. In answer to your question about what happened to him, he did commit suicide by jumping off a local dam (and not on the water side). We don't know exactly what made him do it, but shortly before he jumped, he was having hallucinations & delusions, most likely as a result of AIDS-related dementia.
jsctro
 
Name: Joanne
Posts: 1

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Previous

Return to Medicine

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest