Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

Can anyone tell me about dissidents who died after they refused or stopped treatment?

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Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#1  Postby Hercule » Jun 03, 2018 10:20 am

I'm not sure how useful this forum is, I suspect there may be a lot of conspiracy theory nonsense here, but can anyone enlighten me about why a number of vocal HIV AIDS skeptics who stopped treatment for HIV or refused to be treated for HIV, later died as predicted?

The facts appear to show that there is no evidence - or at least no good evidence - of a link between HIV and AIDS, but someone needs to explain fully and clearly how and why a number of people who were told they were HIV+ and needed to take medication to stay alive, but refused conventional treatment, later died as the doctors predicted. They felt healthy for a while - sometimes for years - and then suddenly became sick and died.

This page over on "Rethinking AIDS" may explain three cases, but the front-page of that website looks garish and amateurish - never a good sign. The explanations given do sound plausible, but these are not the only cases. I am particularly interested to find out what happened to James Scutero; you can hear him speaking in this 1994 TV special "The Great AIDS debate" (poor quality video, but audio is okay):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7bz3Weq088

James Scutero was never on ARV's, and clearly he was well informed, but 4 years after appearing in this debate, he would be dead. He died on June 14 or 15th 1998. I can find no details of what happened, but according to one or two scrap of information on "Questioning AIDS" he committed suicide; another scrap of information claims that he had become sick and was suffering from Kaposi Sarcoma - common in cases of AIDS in gay men.


I think it is of paramount importance that we have explanations for the deaths of individuals who were diagnosed HIV+ and refused conventional treatment. I was hoping to find comment from Prof. Peter Duesberg on these cases, but he doesn't seem to have commented on any.
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Why do HIV AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#2  Postby Hercule » Jun 03, 2018 3:08 pm

Please excuse me if this is a re-post, my first one doesn't seem have appeared.

Can anyone tell me what happened to - and still is happening to - people (AIDS dissidents as they are sometimes called) who refused conventional treatment or stopped taking ARV's? Some appear to have died of AIDS.

The facts seem to show that HIV is not linked to AIDS, or that at least the evidence is very questionable and that there is no scientific proof of a connection between HIV and AIDS. But what if the skeptics are wrong?

I'm particularly trying to find out what happened to James Scutero who in 1994 appeared as an AIDS skeptic in "The Great AIDS debate" but 4 years later committed suicide - from the very little info I can find, it is suggested that he had Kaposi Sarcoma - which is considered a common "AIDS-related disease" in gay men.

The case against a link between HIV and AIDS is compelling, but we need to know what happens to those people diagnosed with HIV who refuse treatment. What is their rate of survival?
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Re: Why do HIV AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#3  Postby Papa Smurf » Jun 03, 2018 6:29 pm

Hercule wrote:people (AIDS dissidents as they are sometimes called) who refused conventional treatment or stopped taking ARV's? Some appear to have died of AIDS.


Really? Who would have thought.

Hercule wrote:The facts seem to show that HIV is not linked to AIDS, or that at least the evidence is very questionable and that there is no scientific proof of a connection between HIV and AIDS. But what if the skeptics are wrong?


Could it be?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_denialism wrote:HIV/AIDS denialism is the belief, contradicted by conclusive medical and scientific evidence,(1) (2) that human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) does not cause acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS).


Hercule wrote:The case against a link between HIV and AIDS is compelling


Care to cite a reference?

Why do I get the feeling I'm feeding a troll?
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Re: Why do HIV AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#4  Postby Pebble » Jun 03, 2018 7:46 pm

Koch's postulate in respect of causation has been fulfilled from 1996, there are no shortage of RCTs demonstrating the efficacy of treatment, nor of subsequent epidemiological data confirming the efficacy of treatment programs and consequences of poor compliance with treatment.

A reasonable review of the evidence and consequence of ignoring the facts is available - for a price:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20058063
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Re: Why do HIV AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 03, 2018 8:51 pm

Hercule wrote:

The facts seem to show that HIV is not linked to AIDS,

Eh no, the facts show that they are linked and it's not questionable.
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Re: Why do HIV AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#6  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 03, 2018 9:18 pm

People die of AIDS because they contracted HIV and it destroyed their body's ability to fight infections.

The only people with HIV who don't die of AIDS (I'm ignoring people who are resistant) are the ones that get hit by a bus or something prior to the disease progressing. If you contract HIV it will eventually cause AIDS and you will die as a result.

There are other ways a person's immune system could be destroyed. Chemotherapy does a great job of that temporarily. We call the syndrome AIDS when it's terminal and caused by HIV infection though. There is no AIDS without HIV (though there are other means by which someone's immune system could be suppressed.)
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#7  Postby The_Metatron » Jun 03, 2018 11:41 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Hercule wrote:

The facts seem to show that HIV is not linked to AIDS,

Eh no, the facts show that they are linked and it's not questionable.

No shit, eh?

Where the fuck do these people come from?


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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#8  Postby Macdoc » Jun 04, 2018 12:40 am

here

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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#9  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jun 04, 2018 12:48 am

What's with the extra low quality trolls lately?
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#10  Postby kiore » Jun 04, 2018 2:02 am

I suspect that the OP saw "skepticism" in the forum name and made assumptions.
Really this HIV doesn't result in AIDs thing is a very old topic put to rest as far as most people concerned last century.
Other than the obvious answer to the title that untreated HIV infection over time progress to a critical phase known as AIDS which we have known about since the 1980s, I wonder if the OP is suggesting another reason this would occur.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#11  Postby Rumraket » Jun 04, 2018 9:40 am

The HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) virus infects and compromises human T-cells, a critical component of the human immune system. The immune system then eventually stops working, leading to AIDS (aptly named Acquired ImmunoDeficiency Syndrome). It was ackquired from the virus, which destroyed the immune system.

Not only is there overwhelming and conclusive evidence of the link, it makes perfect logical sense. It would be absolutely amazing of HIV didn't lead to AIDS.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#12  Postby NNY » Jun 04, 2018 10:32 am

My understanding is as follows: HIV mostly only destroys CD4 T-cells. CD4 T-cells are the cells that tell CD8 killer cells which pathogens to destroy. As HIV destroys more and more CD4 T-cells, CD8 killer cells receive fewer and fewer signals telling it which pathogens to destroy. There comes a critical point where the number of pathogens being detected and destroyed is not enough to stave off what becomes an infection.

In a overly literal sense, HIV does not kill the host, infections like TB and pneumonia kill the host. But these infections are only able to kill the host because the host no longer has the ability to detect the pathogens which cause those infections.

Charlie Sheen was an AIDS Skeptic, he stopped taking his medication and started on an alternative medication. Not long after he started his alternative medication, his HIV count increased.

Some interesting developments in HIV immunity are people with the CCR5 Delta 32 mutation. And there are others who never get AIDS even though they have HIV link 1, link 2, link 3.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#13  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 04, 2018 11:18 am

NNY wrote:My understanding is as follows


Your understanding is relevant in what way? Do you purport expertise?

NNY wrote:
For me masculinity and femininity are forms of self made social control, and they are what some feminists call 'the patriarchy.'


Do you speak, then, from your expertise? If so, it has fuck-all to do with virology.

NNY wrote:And there are others who never get AIDS even though they have HIV,,,


That may be. However, play the percentages until you have something systematic. Or shut your eyes and swing for the fences.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jun 04, 2018 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#14  Postby zulumoose » Jun 04, 2018 11:23 am

Your understanding is relevant in what way? Do you purport expertise?


Terming it as his understanding is good, it allows him to elaborate on details, explain it in his words, and leave himself open to correction without sounding arrogant, it is polite and careful.
Criticism of that approach is either a misunderstanding or very bad form.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#15  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 04, 2018 11:26 am

zulumoose wrote:
Your understanding is relevant in what way? Do you purport expertise?


Terming it as his understanding is good, it allows him to elaborate on details, explain it in his words, and leave himself open to correction without sounding arrogant, it is polite and careful.
Criticism of that approach is either a misunderstanding or very bad form.


If you don't understand that someone has not brought any relevant data, then you don't. This isn't about being convivial.

I don't care how people, including you, phrase their ignorance. My complaint was never that he sounded arrogant. That people sound ignorant is not worth the complaint. Your opinion of my bad form can go fuck itself.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#16  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 04, 2018 11:37 am

HIV resistance is genetic. You either are or you aren't. It has nothing to do with how an individual lives and it certainly doesn't mean the virus isn't deadly or that there's a cure people aren't talking about. A person with HIV whose disease is progressing can't learn anything helpful from people with innate HIV resistance.

NNY wrote:
In a overly literal sense, HIV does not kill the host, infections like TB and pneumonia kill the host. But these infections are only able to kill the host because the host no longer has the ability to detect the pathogens which cause those infections.


People die from a lack of immune response, which enables opportunistic infections like pneumonia to spread, yes.

That lack of immune response is caused by HIV infection. The collective symptoms of immunodeficiency in humans when caused by HIV infection are what we call AIDS. There is no disconnect between HIV and AIDS. AIDS is the symptoms caused by an HIV infection.

Then an opportunistic infection or metastasis comes along and is able to kill the patient. In the absence of the HIV infection, this wouldn't have happened. As such, it's HIV that's responsible for their death, not really the pneumonia. If we're being really picky, we specify the death was caused by pneumonia (or whatever opportunistic infection killed the individual) "in the setting of advanced AIDS".

If you ever see a death certificate of someone who had HIV but died of "disseminated herpes virus, candidiasis, pneumonia..." you can add "in the setting of advanced AIDS" to the end. All those infections and their progression are related to the fact the person had HIV.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#17  Postby zulumoose » Jun 04, 2018 11:54 am

AIDS is the symptoms caused by an HIV infection.


I think that needs a bit of elaboration, as it can be correct depending how you meant it but it can be easily misinterpreted and taken as wrong.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#18  Postby NNY » Jun 04, 2018 12:39 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
NNY wrote:My understanding is as follows

Your understanding is relevant in what way? Do you purport expertise?


The topic at hand is the HIV, so I decided to summarize part of what I have read about the HIV and then describe what happened to an actual skeptic, that skeptic being Charlie Sheen. I then gave some links to people who have unexplained immunity to the HIV.

I'm all for debunking bullshit opinions. If I have written something that is incorrect, please show me the error I have made.

I think that what I wrote is very interesting. It is interesting because the T-cells that destroy pathogens are not destroyed. There are still hundreds of billions of them in the body. The problem is they just can't 'see' the pathogens. It's the T-cells that detect the pathogens that are destroyed. Now that is fucking interesting and deserves to be shared around.

The femininity and masculinity topic is in a different thread called "What is masculinity?"
Last edited by NNY on Jun 04, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#19  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 04, 2018 12:56 pm

NNY wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
NNY wrote:My understanding is as follows

Your understanding is relevant in what way? Do you purport expertise?


The topic at hand is the HIV, so I decided to summarize part of what I have read about the HIV and then describe what happened to an actual skeptic, that skeptic being Charlie Sheen. I then gave some links to people who have unexplained immunity to the HIV.

I'm all for debunking bullshit opinions. If I have written something that is incorrect, please show me the error I have made.

The femininity and masculinity topic is in a different thread called "What is masculinity?"


If you believe that skepticism of pathogens can save a person from disease, you're off on the wrong foot with me. You can read "Carcinoma Angels" by Norman Spinrad, but it's science fiction and not science.
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Re: Why do AIDS skeptics die of AIDS?

#20  Postby NNY » Jun 04, 2018 1:18 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
NNY wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
NNY wrote:My understanding is as follows


If you believe that skepticism of pathogens can save a person from disease, you're off on the wrong foot with me. You can read "Carcinoma Angels" by Norman Spinrad, but it's science fiction and not science.


I think that what I wrote is very interesting. It is interesting because the T-cells that destroy pathogens are not destroyed. There are still hundreds of billions of them in the body. The problem is they just can't 'see' the pathogens. It's the T-cells that detect the pathogens that are destroyed. Now that is fucking interesting and deserves to be shared around.

I think that anybody who believes "that skepticism of pathogens can save a person from disease" is a fucking idiot.
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