Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#101  Postby rainbow » Apr 14, 2010 9:00 am

hackenslash wrote: I'm still not sure why you think this is remotely a defeating argument. It isn't.

I said this where?
The point I made that vaguely waving at 78, or 88 papers and saying the evidence is in that disparate pile, really doesn't amount to much of an argument.
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#102  Postby hackenslash » Apr 14, 2010 9:08 am

But the evidence is in that pile, regardless of whether it's evidence for competing hypotheses. Those papers demonstrate that there is validity in the hypotheses. I don't think that anybody here is suggesting that chemical abiogenesis is a single hypothesis, or that those papers constitute a single body of support for a single hypothesis, only that they do constitute evidence that abiogenesis is possible. And of course, you are quite correct in that there are still major obstacles to be overcome. That's why they are active areas of research.

Now, I try to stay away from discussions on abiogenesis, simply because chemistry is not my thing, and I simply don't know enough about it, but to suggest that those papers and the research highlighted in them does not constitute evidence in support of the possibility of chemical abiogenesis is crass and, frankly, missing the point, or wilfully ignoring the point.
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#103  Postby Rumraket » Apr 14, 2010 9:23 am

rainbow wrote:
rumraket wrote:First of all, it seems most of those 88 papers lend support to a preRNA->RNA world hypothesis. There are papers on the formation of ribonucleotides, oligomers and polymers under various conditions. There are papers on the evolvability of simple self-replicators.

I don't think that most do, but I'd agree that this is the most favoured hypothesis today.
Can we then reject any papers on Lipid World, Metabolism First, Protein First as not being evidence?


No, we can't just reject them out of hand. They don't actually exclude each other.

rainbow wrote:
rumraket wrote:Another large portion of them seems to deal with abiotic amino-acid formations. This could also be relevant for the evolution of the first lifeforms in an RNA-world when they propapbly didn't start out with the ability to synthesise these themselves(since this already requires complex genetic and protein machinery).

The RNA world didn't need amino-acids. It follows that none of these papers provide any evidence for an RNA-world.

It didn't initially need them for the formation of the first protocells, but it is entirely possible that their presence became important later on for the evolution of complex enzymatic and protein machinery. Are you trying to be purposefully ignorant? Surely you could have thought of this yourself.

rainbow wrote:
rumraket wrote:There are several papers on actual evidence for the existence of various relevant(to an RNA world) organic compounds in ancient rocks, meteorites, interstellar dust etc. etc.

These I've missed to my shame and embarrassment. Please point to these papers.


Why so lazy? Oh well, here goes:

A Combined Experimental And Theoretical Study On The Formation Of The Amino Acid Glycine And Its Isomer In Extraterrestrial Ices by Philip D. Holtom, Chris J. Bennett, Yoshihiro Osamura, Nigel J Mason and Ralf. I Kaiser, The Astrophysical Journal, 626: 940-952 (20th June 2005) Relevant because of what I said above.

A Rigorous Attempt To Verify Interstellar Glycine by I. E. Snyder, F. J. Lovas, J. M. Hollis, D. N. Friedel, P. R. Jewell, A. Remijan, V. V. Ilyushin, E. A. Alekseev and S. F. Dyubko, The Astrophysical Journal, 619(2): 914-930 (1st February 2005) {Also available at arXiv.org] Relevant because of what I said above.

Interstellar Glycine by Yi-Jehng Kuan, Steven B. Charnley, Hui-Chun Huang, Wei-Ling Tseng, and Zbigniew Kisiel, The Astrophysical Journal, 593: 848-867 (20th August 2003) Relevant because of what I said above.

Molecular Asymmetry In Extraterrestrial Chemistry: Insights From A Pristine Meteorite by Sandra Pizzarello, Yongsong Huang and Marcelo R. Alexandre, Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 105(10): 3700-3704 (11th March 2008)
Relevant both in terms of the presence of aminoacids in the meteorite, but also regarding the homochirality.

Organic Compounds In Carbonaceous Meteorites by Mark A. Sephton, Natural Products Reports (Royal Society of Chemistry), 19: 292-311 (2002)
A pattern begins to form... I can see how you could have "missed" these papers. The sheer variety of compounds found in this sucker is staggering.

rainbow wrote:
rumraket wrote:There are a few papers discussing the formation of lipids, which can also be relevant to an RNA world model.
It actually fits quite well together if you bothered to look at it a little more than just the titles.

I've read them, and you know I've read them since we've actually discussed the details of these papers in another thread.
Your comment is quite unneccessary.

So is your answer.
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#104  Postby rainbow » Apr 14, 2010 9:23 am

hackenslash wrote:...to suggest that those papers and the research highlighted in them does not constitute evidence in support of the possibility of chemical abiogenesis is crass and, frankly, missing the point, or wilfully ignoring the point.

I suggested this where?
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#105  Postby rainbow » Apr 14, 2010 9:35 am

Rumraket wrote:

rainbow wrote:
rumraket wrote:There are several papers on actual evidence for the existence of various relevant(to an RNA world) organic compounds in ancient rocks, meteorites, interstellar dust etc. etc.

These I've missed to my shame and embarrassment. Please point to these papers.


Why so lazy? Oh well, here goes:

A Combined Experimental And Theoretical Study On The Formation Of The Amino Acid Glycine And Its Isomer In Extraterrestrial Ices by Philip D. Holtom, Chris J. Bennett, Yoshihiro Osamura, Nigel J Mason and Ralf. I Kaiser, The Astrophysical Journal, 626: 940-952 (20th June 2005) Relevant because of what I said above.


Glycine not required for RNA synthesis.
A Rigorous Attempt To Verify Interstellar Glycine by I. E. Snyder, F. J. Lovas, J. M. Hollis, D. N. Friedel, P. R. Jewell, A. Remijan, V. V. Ilyushin, E. A. Alekseev and S. F. Dyubko, The Astrophysical Journal, 619(2): 914-930 (1st February 2005) {Also available at arXiv.org] Relevant because of what I said above.


Glycine not required for RNA synthesis.
Interstellar Glycine by Yi-Jehng Kuan, Steven B. Charnley, Hui-Chun Huang, Wei-Ling Tseng, and Zbigniew Kisiel, The Astrophysical Journal, 593: 848-867 (20th August 2003) Relevant because of what I said above.


Glycine again?
Molecular Asymmetry In Extraterrestrial Chemistry: Insights From A Pristine Meteorite by Sandra Pizzarello, Yongsong Huang and Marcelo R. Alexandre, Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 105(10): 3700-3704 (11th March 2008)
Relevant both in terms of the presence of aminoacids in the meteorite, but also regarding the homochirality.


Still glycine.

Organic Compounds In Carbonaceous Meteorites by Mark A. Sephton, Natural Products Reports (Royal Society of Chemistry), 19: 292-311 (2002)
A pattern begins to form... I can see how you could have "missed" these papers. The sheer variety of compounds found in this sucker is staggering.


Mainly glycine.
...so which of these compounds were actually required to form RNA, then?

Clearly you've failed to provide any papers that show significant amounts of the Precursors of RNA were found.
I wasn't lazy, I just didn't see glycine as a precursor for RNA.
The reason being - it isn't.
Well not according to any one of those papers, at least.
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#106  Postby Rumraket » Apr 14, 2010 9:58 am

rainbow wrote:
Rumraket wrote:

rainbow wrote:
rumraket wrote:There are several papers on actual evidence for the existence of various relevant(to an RNA world) organic compounds in ancient rocks, meteorites, interstellar dust etc. etc.

These I've missed to my shame and embarrassment. Please point to these papers.


Why so lazy? Oh well, here goes:

A Combined Experimental And Theoretical Study On The Formation Of The Amino Acid Glycine And Its Isomer In Extraterrestrial Ices by Philip D. Holtom, Chris J. Bennett, Yoshihiro Osamura, Nigel J Mason and Ralf. I Kaiser, The Astrophysical Journal, 626: 940-952 (20th June 2005) Relevant because of what I said above.


Glycine not required for RNA synthesis.
A Rigorous Attempt To Verify Interstellar Glycine by I. E. Snyder, F. J. Lovas, J. M. Hollis, D. N. Friedel, P. R. Jewell, A. Remijan, V. V. Ilyushin, E. A. Alekseev and S. F. Dyubko, The Astrophysical Journal, 619(2): 914-930 (1st February 2005) {Also available at arXiv.org] Relevant because of what I said above.


Glycine not required for RNA synthesis.
Interstellar Glycine by Yi-Jehng Kuan, Steven B. Charnley, Hui-Chun Huang, Wei-Ling Tseng, and Zbigniew Kisiel, The Astrophysical Journal, 593: 848-867 (20th August 2003) Relevant because of what I said above.


Glycine again?
Molecular Asymmetry In Extraterrestrial Chemistry: Insights From A Pristine Meteorite by Sandra Pizzarello, Yongsong Huang and Marcelo R. Alexandre, Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 105(10): 3700-3704 (11th March 2008)
Relevant both in terms of the presence of aminoacids in the meteorite, but also regarding the homochirality.


Still glycine.

Organic Compounds In Carbonaceous Meteorites by Mark A. Sephton, Natural Products Reports (Royal Society of Chemistry), 19: 292-311 (2002)
A pattern begins to form... I can see how you could have "missed" these papers. The sheer variety of compounds found in this sucker is staggering.


Mainly glycine.
...so which of these compounds were actually required to form RNA, then?

Clearly you've failed to provide any papers that show significant amounts of the Precursors of RNA were found.
I wasn't lazy, I just didn't see glycine as a precursor for RNA.
The reason being - it isn't.
Well not according to any one of those papers, at least.

I never said they were relevant to the formation of RNA. The papers fit my description.
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#107  Postby Mazille » Apr 14, 2010 10:31 am


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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#108  Postby LarianLeQuella » Aug 10, 2010 8:59 pm

Is there any way to clean up all of the information Calilasseia collected and make it a sticky in this forum?
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#109  Postby rainbow » Aug 15, 2010 1:33 pm

LarianLeQuella wrote:Is there any way to clean up all of the information Calilasseia collected and make it a sticky in this forum?

Why?
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#110  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Aug 15, 2010 2:28 pm

rainbow wrote:
[url=http://www.rational-skepticism.org/viewtopic.php?p=128670#p128670]Darwinsbulldog[/url] wrote:
The point you may be trying to make is that if we can't prove abiogenesis by natural means, then we will have to default to a god-creator? If so, then that has it's own problems of evidentiary support, and I would suggest, that the lack of support for a creator-god is much more of a problem than a natural explanation for the origins of life.

Strawman.
Let me remind you that this topic resides in the Science Section, under 'Chemistry'. If you wish to introduce 'creator-gods', please do so in the appropriate subforum.
Please produce the appropriate molecular evidence for Abiogenesis.


I was NOT proposing a god of any sort. YOU were. :roll:
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#111  Postby rainbow » Aug 16, 2010 12:25 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
rainbow wrote:
[url=http://www.rational-skepticism.org/viewtopic.php?p=128670#p128670]Darwinsbulldog[/url] wrote:
The point you may be trying to make is that if we can't prove abiogenesis by natural means, then we will have to default to a god-creator? If so, then that has it's own problems of evidentiary support, and I would suggest, that the lack of support for a creator-god is much more of a problem than a natural explanation for the origins of life.

Strawman.
Let me remind you that this topic resides in the Science Section, under 'Chemistry'. If you wish to introduce 'creator-gods', please do so in the appropriate subforum.
Please produce the appropriate molecular evidence for Abiogenesis.


I was NOT proposing a god of any sort. YOU were. :roll:

Where?
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#112  Postby LarianLeQuella » Jan 03, 2012 7:48 pm

Out of curiosity, have more papers been added to the list as of late? Just wondering.
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#113  Postby rainbow » Jan 04, 2012 7:18 am

rainbow wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Strawman.
Let me remind you that this topic resides in the Science Section, under 'Chemistry'. If you wish to introduce 'creator-gods', please do so in the appropriate subforum.
Please produce the appropriate molecular evidence for Abiogenesis.


I was NOT proposing a god of any sort. YOU were. :roll:

Where?

Found the answer yet, Darwin ?
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#114  Postby Darkchilde » Jan 06, 2012 9:50 am


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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#115  Postby Calilasseia » Jan 06, 2012 5:35 pm

LarianLeQuella wrote:Out of curiosity, have more papers been added to the list as of late? Just wondering.


The total is now 116. :)
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#116  Postby rainbow » Jan 08, 2012 12:57 pm

Calilasseia wrote:
LarianLeQuella wrote:Out of curiosity, have more papers been added to the list as of late? Just wondering.


The total is now 116. :)


Have any produced any self-replicating organisms capable of undergoing evolution from chemical compounds that existed on pre-biotic Earth?
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#117  Postby sennekuyl » Jan 09, 2012 1:42 am

That wouldn't be abiogenesis, now, would it?

That fact that researchers are searching for a suitable mechanism might actually be relevant? Or are you disputing that the hypothesis are the most logical conclusions from what we do know?
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#118  Postby rainbow » Jan 09, 2012 6:17 am

sennekuyl wrote:That wouldn't be abiogenesis, now, would it?

I think it might be, or at least establish that it is possible under a certain set of conditions.

That fact that researchers are searching for a suitable mechanism might actually be relevant?

Perfectly relevant.
Or are you disputing that the hypothesis are the most logical conclusions from what we do know?

There are a number of hypotheses. To which one of these are you referring?
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#119  Postby sennekuyl » Jan 09, 2012 7:59 am

rainbow wrote:
sennekuyl wrote:That wouldn't be abiogenesis, now, would it?

I think it might be, or at least establish that it is possible under a certain set of conditions.

Acknowledged. I misread the statement and took the wrong tack. Your question is compatible with the idea of abiogenesis.

That fact that researchers are searching for a suitable mechanism might actually be relevant?

Perfectly relevant.

Then I don't know what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to make a point?

Or are you disputing that the hypothesis are the most logical conclusions from what we do know?

There are a number of hypotheses. To which one of these are you referring?

Well, there is a number of hypotheses to which the mechanism of abiogenesis is purported to be possible via, but there is really only two main ponderings regarding abiogenesis: was it by some extension of known means (repeatable by some circumstances at some potential point) or was by a currently completely indecipherable means (sometimes taken be 'supernatural'). To which your posts appear to imply.
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Re: Calilasseia: 78 Papers on Abiogenesis

#120  Postby rainbow » Jan 09, 2012 10:03 am

sennekuyl wrote:
rainbow wrote:
sennekuyl wrote:That wouldn't be abiogenesis, now, would it?

I think it might be, or at least establish that it is possible under a certain set of conditions.

Acknowledged. I misread the statement and took the wrong tack. Your question is compatible with the idea of abiogenesis.

That fact that researchers are searching for a suitable mechanism might actually be relevant?

Perfectly relevant.

Then I don't know what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to make a point?

Or are you disputing that the hypothesis are the most logical conclusions from what we do know?

There are a number of hypotheses. To which one of these are you referring?

Well, there is a number of hypotheses to which the mechanism of abiogenesis is purported to be possible via, but there is really only two main ponderings regarding abiogenesis: was it by some extension of known means (repeatable by some circumstances at some potential point) or was by a currently completely indecipherable means (sometimes taken be 'supernatural'). To which your posts appear to imply.

I imply nothing of the sort.
Nor am I interested in 'ponderings'.
I'd like to see some compelling evidence that supports a particular mechanism of abiogenesis.
116 papers later, we don't seem to have it.
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