Comet crash creates potential for life

Composition and transformation of substance.

Moderators: Darkchilde, Calilasseia

Comet crash creates potential for life

 
 

Comet crash creates potential for life

#1  Postby RichardPrins » Mar 26, 2010 9:17 pm

Comet crash creates potential for life
Shock waves could force amino-acid forming chemistry.

Striking a glancing blow to a planet could create the perfect conditions in a comet's icy core to create amino acids — molecules that are vital to forming life on Earth.

This shock-compression theory for making amino acids has been developed by Nir Goldman and his colleagues at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, California. Goldman presented their results on 24 March at the American Chemical Society meeting in San Francisco, California.

The researchers wanted to find out what chemical events might occur in an ice grain trapped inside a comet glancing off a planet. They used around one million computer hours on the powerful Atlas computer cluster at Lawrence Livermore to simulate the possible chemical processes occurring in a single ice grain during such an impact. In particular, they were looking for amino acids — markers of potential life.

Previous theories for how amino acids on Earth might have come into being include lightning strikes on a primordial soup of simple molecules or the ultraviolet irradiation of interstellar dust grains, but none of the theories proposed so far is definitive.

Goldman's simulations included 210 molecules: a mixture of water, methanol, ammonia, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. This mix is commonly used by scientists to represent ice in comets.

First impact
When a comet strikes a planet, a shock wave travels through it as it comes to a sudden halt. This, Goldman explains, compresses the comet, and the compression wave travels through the comet faster than the speed of sound. As a result, the molecules inside deform and bonds break.

Goldman's group based its models on the impact that a comet travelling at 29 kilometres per second would be likely to experience. The impact had to be a side-on blow because a head-on impact would probably destroy everything inside.

To unpick the chemistry going on inside the ice, the researchers used density functional theory simulations, a quantum mechanical treatment of the electrons in a molecule. In the model, if the electrons around the atoms come close enough to those around other atoms a bond will form.

The first and weakest shock compression that Goldman and his colleagues modelled had a pressure of 10 gigapascals and reached a temperature of 700 kelvin. The grain was compressed by 40%. The team noticed that molecules with carbon–nitrogen bonds were forming, including an unstable molecule called carbamide. This was a hint that amino-acid-forming processes were possible. "Under these sorts of conditions everything's very reactive, so if you have one sort of morsel that has an essential component like a C–N bond you can imagine more carbons adding to it and getting a complicated amino acid," says Goldman.

In further simulations, in which the pressures and temperatures were higher, the scientists saw more chemistry. They focused on a simulation at 47 gigapascals and a temperature of 3,141 kelvin for the first 20 picoseconds of the impact. They saw many complex molecules forming, including large molecules with carbon–nitrogen bonds. (...)
Image
Image
User avatar
RichardPrins
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 1525
Age: 45

Netherlands (nl)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#2  Postby Nautilidae » Mar 26, 2010 9:26 pm

Wow, this sheds much light on panspermia! Thank you for the post.
Image
Animavore wrote:The Lovely Bones. Always - The Lovely Bones.
User avatar
Nautilidae
 
Posts: 3704
Age: 17
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#3  Postby feign_ignorence » Apr 03, 2010 1:23 am

Nautilidae wrote:Wow, this sheds much light on panspermia! Thank you for the post.


Unless i misread, it has nothing to do with panspermia (?).

Cool stuff though!
Ryan
feign_ignorence
 
Posts: 50
Male


Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#4  Postby rainbow » Apr 12, 2010 3:02 pm

RichardPrins wrote:Comet crash creates potential for life
Shock waves could force amino-acid forming chemistry.

Striking a glancing blow to a planet could create the perfect conditions in a comet's icy core to create amino acids — molecules that are vital to forming life on Earth.

This shock-compression theory for making amino acids has been developed by Nir Goldman and his colleagues at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, California. Goldman presented their results on 24 March at the American Chemical Society meeting in San Francisco, California.

The researchers wanted to find out what chemical events might occur in an ice grain trapped inside a comet glancing off a planet. They used around one million computer hours on the powerful Atlas computer cluster at Lawrence Livermore to simulate the possible chemical processes occurring in a single ice grain during such an impact. In particular, they were looking for amino acids — markers of potential life.

Previous theories for how amino acids on Earth might have come into being include lightning strikes on a primordial soup of simple molecules or the ultraviolet irradiation of interstellar dust grains, but none of the theories proposed so far is definitive.

Goldman's simulations included 210 molecules: a mixture of water, methanol, ammonia, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. This mix is commonly used by scientists to represent ice in comets.

First impact
When a comet strikes a planet, a shock wave travels through it as it comes to a sudden halt. This, Goldman explains, compresses the comet, and the compression wave travels through the comet faster than the speed of sound. As a result, the molecules inside deform and bonds break.

Goldman's group based its models on the impact that a comet travelling at 29 kilometres per second would be likely to experience. The impact had to be a side-on blow because a head-on impact would probably destroy everything inside.

To unpick the chemistry going on inside the ice, the researchers used density functional theory simulations, a quantum mechanical treatment of the electrons in a molecule. In the model, if the electrons around the atoms come close enough to those around other atoms a bond will form.

The first and weakest shock compression that Goldman and his colleagues modelled had a pressure of 10 gigapascals and reached a temperature of 700 kelvin. The grain was compressed by 40%. The team noticed that molecules with carbon–nitrogen bonds were forming, including an unstable molecule called carbamide. This was a hint that amino-acid-forming processes were possible. "Under these sorts of conditions everything's very reactive, so if you have one sort of morsel that has an essential component like a C–N bond you can imagine more carbons adding to it and getting a complicated amino acid," says Goldman.

In further simulations, in which the pressures and temperatures were higher, the scientists saw more chemistry. They focused on a simulation at 47 gigapascals and a temperature of 3,141 kelvin for the first 20 picoseconds of the impact. They saw many complex molecules forming, including large molecules with carbon–nitrogen bonds. (...)


We don't need amino-acids to start life according to the RNA-first hypothesis.
...or for the formation of fatty-acid protocells.
They also don't feature big in the Metabolism-first hypothesis.

Which hypothesis is it then that needs these amino-acids again?
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6885

Malawi (mw)


Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#6  Postby rainbow » Apr 19, 2010 6:54 am

jaydot wrote::coffee:

...yet strangely, I get accused of evading questions.
:smug:
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6885

Malawi (mw)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#7  Postby Lazar » Apr 19, 2010 7:14 am

rainbow wrote:
jaydot wrote::coffee:

...yet strangely, I get accused of evading questions.
:smug:


the :coffee: symbol is usually used to indicate someone is bookmarking the discussion so they can find it again easily in their "your posts" tab.
Image

Spinozasgalt: "And how come no one ever sigs me?"
User avatar
Lazar
 
Posts: 2280
Age: 28
Male

Australia (au)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#8  Postby rainbow » Apr 19, 2010 7:44 am

Lazar wrote:
rainbow wrote:
jaydot wrote::coffee:

...yet strangely, I get accused of evading questions.
:smug:


the :coffee: symbol is usually used to indicate someone is bookmarking the discussion so they can find it again easily in their "your posts" tab.


...as I am.
I will patiently wait for someone to explain the statement:
amino acids — molecules that are vital to forming life on Earth.
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6885

Malawi (mw)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#9  Postby Lazar » Apr 19, 2010 7:50 am

rainbow wrote:
Lazar wrote:
rainbow wrote:
jaydot wrote::coffee:

...yet strangely, I get accused of evading questions.
:smug:


the :coffee: symbol is usually used to indicate someone is bookmarking the discussion so they can find it again easily in their "your posts" tab.


...as I am.
I will patiently wait for someone to explain the statement:
amino acids — molecules that are vital to forming life on Earth.


So you bookmark by accusing other bookmarking posters of evading questions. Interesting strategy :ask: .
Image

Spinozasgalt: "And how come no one ever sigs me?"
User avatar
Lazar
 
Posts: 2280
Age: 28
Male

Australia (au)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#10  Postby rainbow » Apr 19, 2010 8:07 am

Lazar wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Lazar wrote:
rainbow wrote:
jaydot wrote::coffee:

...yet strangely, I get accused of evading questions.
:smug:


the :coffee: symbol is usually used to indicate someone is bookmarking the discussion so they can find it again easily in their "your posts" tab.


...as I am.
I will patiently wait for someone to explain the statement:
amino acids — molecules that are vital to forming life on Earth.


So you bookmark by accusing other bookmarking posters of evading questions. Interesting strategy :ask: .

I certainly did not accuse anyone of evasion. I merely pointed out the irony.
Now anyone want to answer the question?
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6885

Malawi (mw)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#11  Postby Lazar » Apr 19, 2010 8:21 am

What irony would that be?
Image

Spinozasgalt: "And how come no one ever sigs me?"
User avatar
Lazar
 
Posts: 2280
Age: 28
Male

Australia (au)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#12  Postby rainbow » Apr 19, 2010 8:32 am

Lazar wrote:What irony would that be?

:coffee:
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6885

Malawi (mw)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#13  Postby rainbow » Apr 20, 2010 7:55 am

:scratch:
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6885

Malawi (mw)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#14  Postby Rumraket » Apr 24, 2010 11:27 pm

I actually agree with Rainbow on this one, to a certain extend. It seems to me in contemporary origin of life hypotheses, the presence of amino acids on earth are not initially important for the formation of the first protocells.

That is not to say that they are completely irrelevant for the evolution of life, once it has taken hold. As I understand it, once the protocells have formed with their primitive fatty acid membrane and whatever genetic material was present, having amino acids readily available in the environment, could potentially subject that lifeform to a selective pressure for incorporating those amino-acids in it's internal chemistry... and so they could be relevant for subsequent evolution of life.

Going further, if these lifeforms evolve to incorporate these aminoacids in their internal metabolism, it seems reasonable that at some point, the lakes or oceans where these organisms live will eventually, although slowly and gradually, run out of free amino acids and will therefore be under a selective pressure to evolve it's own amino-acids synthesizing machinery.

So, I guess a case could be made that the most primitive form of life could come about without the aid of amino-acids, but further evolution could largely rely on it. I think the title of the article would be better as "Comet crash creates potential for evolution of complex life".
User avatar
Rumraket
 
Posts: 3964
Age: 31
Male

Denmark (dk)

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

 
 

Re: Comet crash creates potential for life

#15  Postby rainbow » Apr 26, 2010 11:50 am

Rumraket wrote:I actually agree with Rainbow on this one, to a certain extend. It seems to me in contemporary origin of life hypotheses, the presence of amino acids on earth are not initially important for the formation of the first protocells.

That is not to say that they are completely irrelevant for the evolution of life, once it has taken hold. As I understand it, once the protocells have formed with their primitive fatty acid membrane and whatever genetic material was present, having amino acids readily available in the environment, could potentially subject that lifeform to a selective pressure for incorporating those amino-acids in it's internal chemistry... and so they could be relevant for subsequent evolution of life.

Going further, if these lifeforms evolve to incorporate these aminoacids in their internal metabolism, it seems reasonable that at some point, the lakes or oceans where these organisms live will eventually, although slowly and gradually, run out of free amino acids and will therefore be under a selective pressure to evolve it's own amino-acids synthesizing machinery.

So, I guess a case could be made that the most primitive form of life could come about without the aid of amino-acids, but further evolution could largely rely on it. I think the title of the article would be better as "Comet crash creates potential for evolution of complex life".


:thumbup:
As soon as that Replicator exists, then evolution can move the protocell towards increasing complexity, and make use of any available material - so yes this would include the amino-acids.
What is of more interest is what happened before that.
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

"Það er ekki til betri tími en núna til að fresta"
User avatar
rainbow
 
Name: Señor Moderato
Posts: 6885

Malawi (mw)


Return to Chemistry

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest