Neutron Chemistry

Composition and transformation of substance.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#21  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 20, 2013 6:04 pm

Arthur Methoxy wrote:...
This is why I suggest building the periodic table based on neutrons. More than any other development in Chemistry, it is the periodic table that can prevent us from seeing Chemistry in the larger scheme of things.
It would be a fascinating exercise for schoolkids and would free people up from the idea that Chemistry is a single conceptual topic.

You can suggest it, but that does not make it a good idea. As they have no charge, the number of neutrons in an atomic nucleus has almost effect on the outer electron shells. Therefore, neutrons have no effect on molecular interactions unless and until they cause radioactive decay of the nucleus.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 67
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Neutron Chemistry

#22  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 20, 2013 6:23 pm

... The only useful function that neutrons have in chemistry is to hold the protons together, so that atoms heavier than hydrogen can exist for more than a femtosecond.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 67
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#23  Postby Arthur Methoxy » Jul 20, 2013 6:33 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
Arthur Methoxy wrote:...
This is why I suggest building the periodic table based on neutrons. More than any other development in Chemistry, it is the periodic table that can prevent us from seeing Chemistry in the larger scheme of things.
It would be a fascinating exercise for schoolkids and would free people up from the idea that Chemistry is a single conceptual topic.

You can suggest it, but that does not make it a good idea. As they have no charge, the number of neutrons in an atomic nucleus has almost effect on the outer electron shells. Therefore, neutrons have no effect on molecular interactions unless and until they cause radioactive decay of the nucleus.


Yes, but it is a scientifically legitimate exercise to build a neutron-based periodic table, and to be able to show its limits and where such limits apply, is, surely, a great afternoon exercise for schoolkids, chemists and nuclear physicists. You got to say its a great idea as a "propaedeutic" for a cross-disciplinary exercise.
User avatar
Arthur Methoxy
Banned Troll
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Arthur Mendoza
Posts: 165

Country: Uk
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#24  Postby Weaver » Jul 20, 2013 6:37 pm

Why don't you go ahead and build one, then demonstrate it's superiority to the conventional periodic table? Also demonstrate how it compares with and interacts with the Table of Nuclides.
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#25  Postby Arthur Methoxy » Jul 20, 2013 6:43 pm

What a narrow-minded response. And quite uncharitable.

You think that building a periodic table based on neutrons is not educational because it is not productive?
Should we send schoolkids straight into the workplace?
User avatar
Arthur Methoxy
Banned Troll
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Arthur Mendoza
Posts: 165

Country: Uk
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#26  Postby Weaver » Jul 20, 2013 6:45 pm

If you think it's so educational, BUILD IT AND DEMONSTRATE IT! Don't say it's an exercise for the student, and have someone else do your work of showing why and how it's supposedly so educational.

And don't put words into my mouth, or ascribe false meanings to what I wrote.

Starting to really wonder about this poster ...
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#27  Postby scott1328 » Jul 20, 2013 6:48 pm

Arthur doesn't even understand the history of chemistry. An arrangement such as Arthur suggests has already been tried. In fact, when the periodic table was first being laid out by Mendeleev it was laid out according to each (known) element's atomic mass which depends on the number of protons and neutrons. And for the most part the early chemists noticed a periodicity in the properties of the elements. But there were a few anomalies, Cobalt and Nickel if arranged according to atomic mass do not appear to share traits with other element in their purported groups. The same is true for tellurium and iodine. It was the anomalies in the arrangement of a few elements that led Henry Mosely to rearrange the elements according to proton number, this led to the current periodic table and the accurate prediction of many subsequently discovered elements.
User avatar
scott1328
 
Name: Some call me... Tim
Posts: 8695
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Neutron Chemistry

#28  Postby Arthur Methoxy » Jul 20, 2013 8:01 pm

I'm done here, Mr Gradgrind (google it).
User avatar
Arthur Methoxy
Banned Troll
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Arthur Mendoza
Posts: 165

Country: Uk
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#29  Postby scott1328 » Jul 20, 2013 9:43 pm

Arthur Methoxy wrote:I'm done here, Mr Gradgrind (google it).


I was going to report this as a personal attack, but I then realized how much of a compliment this really was.

Mr Thomas Gradgrind is the notorious headmaster in Dickens's novel Hard Times who is dedicated to the pursuit of profitable enterprise. His name is now used generically to refer to someone who is hard and only concerned with cold facts and numbers.


It's like the time my siblings mocked me by calling me Mr. Spock.

It is a burden I must bear.
User avatar
scott1328
 
Name: Some call me... Tim
Posts: 8695
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#30  Postby Weaver » Jul 20, 2013 10:48 pm

Apparently Arthur Methoxy is departing the various Science forums because we keep insisting that the discussions there involve ... Science.
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#31  Postby hackenslash » Jul 21, 2013 6:49 am

Let me fix this for you.

Arthur Methoxy wrote:It's hard for for those skeptics who don't know anything about science but want to fight against supernaturalism. It means that they don't have any ammunition to combat scientific claims. It's sad really, but there are two strategies that you might find useful:
.
I think the best thing to do for someone who finds themselves ignorant about the sciences is either
1) not to comment on the correctness or otherwise of claimed scientific claims
2) analyse the philosophical grammar for conceptual mistakes.


You might want to try one of those strategies.

There you go.
User avatar
hackenslash
 
Name: The Other Sweary One
Posts: 21440
Age: 51
Male

Country: Republic of Mancunia
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#32  Postby Paul Almond » Jul 21, 2013 6:57 am

All these threads. All these ideas. All these different areas of study. All this creativity.
It's like dealing with a renaissance Harley Borgais.
If I ever start making posts like "On the banning and partial banning of words!" then I view my life as less than worthless and I hope that my friends here would have a collection to pay for ninjas to be sent to my home to kill me*. (*=humanely)
User avatar
Paul Almond
 
Name: Paul Almond
Posts: 1541
Male

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#33  Postby hackenslash » Jul 21, 2013 7:01 am

I was thinking the same thing. Spooky! Image
User avatar
hackenslash
 
Name: The Other Sweary One
Posts: 21440
Age: 51
Male

Country: Republic of Mancunia
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#34  Postby Calilasseia » Aug 16, 2013 12:32 am

As has been explained above, it seems AM is unaware that interactions involving neutrons have already been subject to extensive study. The people responsible are nuclear physicists.

Chemistry deals with interactions between elements arising from exchanges of valence electrons.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22082
Age: 59
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#35  Postby Arthur Methoxy » Aug 16, 2013 10:11 am

The arbitrary conceptual barriers between Nuclear physics and chemistry can be loosened by understanding and implementing the possibility of re-arranging the chemical periodic tale according to neutrons, not protons.
User avatar
Arthur Methoxy
Banned Troll
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Arthur Mendoza
Posts: 165

Country: Uk
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Neutron Chemistry

#36  Postby theropod » Aug 16, 2013 10:18 am

Arthur Methoxy wrote:The arbitrary conceptual barriers between Nuclear physics and chemistry can be loosened by understanding and implementing the possibility of re-arranging the chemical periodic tale according to neutrons, not protons.


Read the post immediately before yours and think a little.

RS
Sleeping in the hen house doesn't make you a chicken.
User avatar
theropod
RS Donator
 
Name: Roger
Posts: 7529
Age: 67
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#37  Postby Arthur Methoxy » Aug 16, 2013 10:32 am

I have read it again. Here is my response, which seems appropriate, unproblematic and interesting.
The arbitrary conceptual barriers between Nuclear physics and chemistry can be loosened by understanding and implementing the possibility of re-arranging the chemical periodic tale according to neutrons, not protons.
User avatar
Arthur Methoxy
Banned Troll
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Arthur Mendoza
Posts: 165

Country: Uk
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#38  Postby theropod » Aug 16, 2013 10:38 am

Then get busy with getting those pesky PROFESSIONAL scientists to accept your methods and stop posting here.

Also, you might want to look at your own assertions and think of the word "arbitrary" a little more.

RS
Sleeping in the hen house doesn't make you a chicken.
User avatar
theropod
RS Donator
 
Name: Roger
Posts: 7529
Age: 67
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#39  Postby Arthur Methoxy » Aug 16, 2013 11:02 am

I must say I am surprised at the insular responses. What I am proposing is merely an educational exercise, a resource for the imagination, a propaedeutic for loosening some of the conceptual, inappropriately affectionate ties we have traditionally encouraged for certain landed educational stratagems, like the standard periodic table.
User avatar
Arthur Methoxy
Banned Troll
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Arthur Mendoza
Posts: 165

Country: Uk
Print view this post

Re: Neutron Chemistry

#40  Postby DavidMcC » Aug 16, 2013 11:20 am

Arthur Methoxy wrote:I have read it again. Here is my response, which seems appropriate, unproblematic and interesting.
The arbitrary conceptual barriers between Nuclear physics and chemistry can be loosened by understanding and implementing the possibility of re-arranging the chemical periodic tale according to neutrons, not protons.

There are already plots of neutron count v. proton count, Arthur. That is where the so-called "island of stability" comes from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability
However, this is not about chemistry per se (ie, the effects of mainly outer electrons), but about nuclear chemistry. Yet you seem to think it is relevant to electron chemistry, for some reason. :roll:
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 67
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Chemistry

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest