Water is very peculiar

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Composition and transformation of substance.

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Re: Water is very peculiar

#21  Postby zulumoose » Jun 20, 2017 1:49 pm

newolder wrote:I'm still coming to terms with the peculiar fact that there exists a wiki on "How to remove ice cubes from a tray."
:nono:


You just can't teach some people, no matter how I explain simple things my family members still leave flammable things on the stove, leave poisonous substances near food or on food prep surfaces, twist and bang ice trays straight out of the freezer, tear open packets all the way down the side, etc.etc.etc.

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Re: Water is very peculiar

#22  Postby newolder » Jun 20, 2017 2:17 pm

I tend to keep poisons &c out of the kitchen area and in closer proximity to the victims in the cellar. Oops! Me and my big fingers, typing away... :lol:
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#23  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 20, 2017 2:29 pm

zulumoose wrote:Actually since water is so common, the only peculiar thing is that we find its behaviour peculiar at all, instead of wondering why all the less common substances don't act the same.

its behaviour is peculiar, in the sense that it is rare to find a material that is liquid at room temperature and pressure, AND which often acts as a chemically inert, polar solvent.
Last edited by DavidMcC on Jun 20, 2017 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#24  Postby tuco » Jun 20, 2017 2:51 pm

zulumoose wrote:
newolder wrote:I'm still coming to terms with the peculiar fact that there exists a wiki on "How to remove ice cubes from a tray."
:nono:


You just can't teach some people, no matter how I explain simple things my family members still leave flammable things on the stove, leave poisonous substances near food or on food prep surfaces, twist and bang ice trays straight out of the freezer, tear open packets all the way down the side, etc.etc.etc.

Being rational is almost a curse, everyone ignores the "critic".


Not on this board.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#25  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 20, 2017 2:56 pm

zulumoose wrote:
newolder wrote:I'm still coming to terms with the peculiar fact that there exists a wiki on "How to remove ice cubes from a tray."
:nono:


You just can't teach some people, no matter how I explain simple things my family members still leave flammable things on the stove, leave poisonous substances near food or on food prep surfaces, twist and bang ice trays straight out of the freezer, tear open packets all the way down the side, etc.etc.etc.

Being rational is almost a curse, everyone ignores the "critic".

Too true!
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#26  Postby pelfdaddy » Jun 22, 2017 3:42 am

I have always thought that water, like most things I suppose, actually becomes more dense as it cools, but that it does so at a minute level. Then the denser-than-water frozen crystal shapes form a structure (snowflake, ice cube, glacier) so constituted as to allow air bubbles (thus the opaque whiteness) in and among the crystals, causing ice to expand and appear noticeably less dense; not due to a magical property that distinguishes water from things that contract as they cool, but due to the diffuse air space within the ice formation.

Correct?
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#27  Postby Fenrir » Jun 22, 2017 4:46 am

pelfdaddy wrote:I have always thought that water, like most things I suppose, actually becomes more dense as it cools, but that it does so at a minute level. Then the denser-than-water frozen crystal shapes form a structure (snowflake, ice cube, glacier) so constituted as to allow air bubbles (thus the opaque whiteness) in and among the crystals, causing ice to expand and appear noticeably less dense; not due to a magical property that distinguishes water from things that contract as they cool, but due to the diffuse air space within the ice formation.

Correct?

Easy enough to test yourself. Boil some water to degas it then freeze it, should result in significantly clearer ice. See how it floats compared to ordinary gassy ice. Let us know how you get on.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#28  Postby zulumoose » Jun 22, 2017 6:19 am

Boil some water to degas it then freeze it, should result in significantly clearer ice. See how it floats compared to ordinary gassy ice.


Some pubs do this, the result is absolutely clear ice that appears to float very low, but that might just be because it is less visible.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#29  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 22, 2017 7:13 am

zulumoose wrote:
Boil some water to degas it then freeze it, should result in significantly clearer ice. See how it floats compared to ordinary gassy ice.


Some pubs do this, the result is absolutely clear ice that appears to float very low, but that might just be because it is less visible.


Displacement volume is not a radically difficult concept, but you do have to have encountered it. Archimedes worked it out and shouted "Eureka!" Even full of air, most of the volume of an iceberg is under water. Surely you've heard of that. How much gas can you trap in an ice cube? How much gas can you dissolve in water? Why does the gas come out of solution when the water freezes? This is interesting shit!

Boats float 'high' because they're full of air. Ice cubes (even those enclosing air bubbles) float 'low' because their density contrast is not so great in water.

So, no. Visibility is not really the issue. I'm still coming to terms with a furor about removing ice cubes from a tray.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#30  Postby zulumoose » Jun 22, 2017 7:26 am

I really don't think anyone on this board needs to be told what displacement volume is or why boats float.

So, no. Visibility is not really the issue. I'm still coming to terms with a furor about removing ice cubes from a tray.


Silly people either can't get the ice out or get violent and destroy the trays in the process, because (like most people) they aren't in the habit of thinking about what they are doing or how they have created the problem, or even what the real problem is.

Simple things like overfilling the tray so that it is one interconnected block instead of individual cubes or placing it on a slant so that half of it has that problem make things harder.

The main problem though is that the ice is stuck to the tray, so run water over the back for a couple of seconds to release it and hey presto - no problem.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#31  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 22, 2017 7:30 am

zulumoose wrote:I really don't think anyone on this board needs to be told what displacement volume is or why boats float.

So, no. Visibility is not really the issue. I'm still coming to terms with a furor about removing ice cubes from a tray.


Silly people either can't get the ice out or get violent and destroy the trays in the process, because (like most people) they aren't in the habit of thinking about what they are doing or how they have created the problem, or even what the real problem is.

Simple things like overfilling the tray so that it is one interconnected block instead of individual cubes or placing it on a slant so that half of it has that problem make things harder.

The main problem though is that the ice is stuck to the tray, so run water over the back for a couple of seconds to release it and hey presto - no problem.


I know, I know. Let's obsess for another couple of hours about the mechanics of ice in trays.

zulumoose wrote:I really don't think anyone on this board needs to be told what displacement volume is or why boats float.


No? Sure, I guess not any more.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#32  Postby Fenrir » Jun 22, 2017 7:39 am

zulumoose wrote:
Boil some water to degas it then freeze it, should result in significantly clearer ice. See how it floats compared to ordinary gassy ice.


Some pubs do this, the result is absolutely clear ice that appears to float very low, but that might just be because it is less visible.


The question isn't whether ice will float lower without air bubbles. The question is whether water ice has higher density than water and will therefore sink without air bubbles.

It doesn't and it won't.





*Here's an interesting twist. What's the difference between the two ice cubes in the image below?

Image

And no cheating by looking at the file name, I can't be arsed changing it, and no this has nothing to do with the density of water compared to the density of ice made from it.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#33  Postby zulumoose » Jun 22, 2017 7:46 am

I would guess that the two systems are not all water, either the liquids are different or the "ice" is different.

Another way to do that would be to freeze the ice on the left in the glass, so that it sticks, then fill it quickly and take the photo before it releases.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#34  Postby LucidFlight » Jun 22, 2017 8:07 am

Fenrir wrote:
*Here's an interesting twist. What's the difference between the two ice cubes in the image below?

Image

And no cheating by looking at the file name, I can't be arsed changing it, and no this has nothing to do with the density of water compared to the density of ice made from it.

The left one is an Australian ice cube.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#35  Postby Fenrir » Jun 22, 2017 8:10 am

zulumoose wrote:I would guess that the two systems are not all water, either the liquids are different or the "ice" is different.

Another way to do that would be to freeze the ice on the left in the glass, so that it sticks, then fill it quickly and take the photo before it releases.

Nope. No such trickery. They are two cubes of frozen water which have simply been dropped in water. There is a difference between them but it is more subtle than simple trickery.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#36  Postby newolder » Jun 22, 2017 9:08 am

What's the isotopic composition of the hydrogen in each cube, I wonder?
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#37  Postby Fenrir » Jun 22, 2017 9:52 am

newolder wrote:What's the isotopic composition of the hydrogen in each cube, I wonder?

No need to wonder. One is heavy water, one isn't, the water is ordinary water.

Again, not relevant to the OP, just a cool thing.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#38  Postby laklak » Jun 22, 2017 7:46 pm

Apparently you can drink water, like, instead of beer. I wouldn't, because fish fuck in it, but it can be done without bodily harm.
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Re: Water is very peculiar

#39  Postby crank » Jun 25, 2017 2:25 am

I'd heard that but haven't been interested enough to test.
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