A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

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A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#1  Postby DoctorE » Dec 16, 2013 9:13 am

:yawn:...

1. God provides the best explanation of the origin of the universe. Given the scientific evidence we have about our universe and its origins, and bolstered by arguments presented by philosophers for centuries, it is highly probable that the universe had an absolute beginning. Since the universe, like everything else, could not have merely popped into being without a cause, there must exist a transcendent reality beyond time and space that brought the universe into existence. This entity must therefore be enormously powerful. Only a transcendent, unembodied mind suitably fits that description.

2. God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.

3. God provides the best explanation of objective moral values and duties. Even atheists recognize that some things, for example, the Holocaust, are objectively evil. But if atheism is true, what basis is there for the objectivity of the moral values we affirm? Evolution? Social conditioning? These factors may at best produce in us the subjective feeling that there are objective moral values and duties, but they do nothing to provide a basis for them. If human evolution had taken a different path, a very different set of moral feelings might have evolved. By contrast, God Himself serves as the paradigm of goodness, and His commandments constitute our moral duties. Thus, theism provides a better explanation of objective moral values and duties.

4. God provides the best explanation of the historical facts concerning Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. Historians have reached something of consensus that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God’s Kingdom had broken into human history, and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact. Moreover, most historical scholars agree that after his crucifixion Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by a group of female disciples, that various individuals and groups saw appearances of Jesus alive after his death, and that the original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe in Jesus’ resurrection despite their every predisposition to the contrary. I can think of no better explanation of these facts than the one the original disciples gave: God raised Jesus from the dead.

5. God can be personally known and experienced. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Down through history Christians have found through Jesus a personal acquaintance with God that has transformed their lives.

The good thing is that atheists tend to be very passionate people and want to believe in something. If they would only put aside the slogans for a moment and reexamine their worldview in light of the best philosophical, scientific, and historical evidence we have today, then they, too, would find Christmas worth celebrating!

Moar: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/ ... od-exists/
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#2  Postby trubble76 » Dec 16, 2013 9:16 am

1) Bollocks
2) Bollocks
3) Bollocks
4) Bollocks
5) Bollocks

Thus proving that while you don't have to be a snake oil salesman to be a christian philosopher, it could well help.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#3  Postby chairman bill » Dec 16, 2013 9:16 am

More cod philosophy from WLC. The man is a fuckwit, peddling religious snake oil & lies. He & Fox News deserve each other.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#4  Postby Newmark » Dec 16, 2013 9:55 am

Is it just me, or is point 2 inherently self-refuting? I mean, how can god be "intelligent" if intelligence requires fine tuning?
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 16, 2013 10:03 am

Point 4 isn't just bollocks, it's a blatant lie.
So, yet more evidence that WLC lies for Jeebus.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#6  Postby Aca » Dec 16, 2013 10:11 am

from the article

In the case of a Christian who has no good reasons for what he believes, this slogan serves as an effective conversation-stopper. But if we have good reasons for our beliefs, then this slogan serves rather as a conversation-starter.


yet, you cannot comment on the article on the fox website....
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#7  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Dec 16, 2013 10:16 am

I don't believe I requested this as a Christmas gift. How disappointing.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#8  Postby kennyc » Dec 16, 2013 12:49 pm

trubble76 wrote:1) Bollocks
2) Bollocks
3) Bollocks
4) Bollocks
5) Bollocks

Thus proving that while you don't have to be a snake oil salesman to be a christian philosopher, it could well help.



Hey! I was going to say that......or something like it....

:mrgreen:
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#9  Postby chairman bill » Dec 16, 2013 12:56 pm

kennyc wrote:
trubble76 wrote:1) Bollocks
2) Bollocks
3) Bollocks
4) Bollocks
5) Bollocks

Thus proving that while you don't have to be a snake oil salesman to be a christian philosopher, it could well help.



Hey! I was going to say that......or something like it....

:mrgreen:


Me too, but less eloquently
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#10  Postby Animavore » Dec 16, 2013 1:07 pm

1. God provides the best explanation of the origin of the universe. Given the scientific evidence we have about our universe and its origins, and bolstered by arguments presented by philosophers for centuries, it is highly probable that the universe had an absolute beginning. Since the universe, like everything else, could not have merely popped into being without a cause, there must exist a transcendent reality beyond time and space that brought the universe into existence. This entity must therefore be enormously powerful. Only a transcendent, unembodied mind suitably fits that description.


This last line is totally without merit. An transcendent, unembodied mind doesn't fit any description. It doesn't even make sense.

2. God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.


Design is the worst explanation. Theists say that science answers the How while religion answers the Why. When they say "design" explains the universe they actually mean it as an answer to the Why. They ignore that it is also a How question and will evade trying to answer it as a How as best they can as is evidenced by the refusal of theists to answer this on this very forum. How did God make the universe? What was the Process? From what materials did he forge it? And so forth...

Also, he uses 'chance' in a way that is misleading. Luckily Jesus doesn't mind the odd lie in favour of his cause.

3. God provides the best explanation of objective moral values and duties. Even atheists recognize that some things, for example, the Holocaust, are objectively evil. But if atheism is true, what basis is there for the objectivity of the moral values we affirm? Evolution? Social conditioning? These factors may at best produce in us the subjective feeling that there are objective moral values and duties, but they do nothing to provide a basis for them. If human evolution had taken a different path, a very different set of moral feelings might have evolved. By contrast, God Himself serves as the paradigm of goodness, and His commandments constitute our moral duties. Thus, theism provides a better explanation of objective moral values and duties.


Prove objective morals.

Opps!

4. God provides the best explanation of the historical facts concerning Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. Historians have reached something of consensus that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God’s Kingdom had broken into human history, and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact. Moreover, most historical scholars agree that after his crucifixion Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by a group of female disciples, that various individuals and groups saw appearances of Jesus alive after his death, and that the original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe in Jesus’ resurrection despite their every predisposition to the contrary. I can think of no better explanation of these facts than the one the original disciples gave: God raised Jesus from the dead.


But we know of "miracle workers" and "exorcisms" to this day and they are better explained by pious fraud, a desperation to believe, shoddy investigation practices and mental illness and abuse of the mentally ill.
Of course, as pointed above, this is all a lie anyway. Historians do not even talk about miracles and exorcism and other supernatural stuff when investigating the historicity of Jesus and take a sceptical approach. Even Christian historians like Diarmaid MacCulloch.

5. God can be personally known and experienced. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Down through history Christians have found through Jesus a personal acquaintance with God that has transformed their lives.


Bollox, pure and simple. The vast majority of Christians are just Christians because their fathers were and so were their fore-fathers etc. They go to Mass on a Sunday, mutter their couple of prayers, and then the rest of the week they don't even think of it. Many figet, restlessly, in their seats waiting for church to be over so they can go home and watch the game.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#11  Postby trubble76 » Dec 16, 2013 1:12 pm

chairman bill wrote:
kennyc wrote:
trubble76 wrote:1) Bollocks
2) Bollocks
3) Bollocks
4) Bollocks
5) Bollocks

Thus proving that while you don't have to be a snake oil salesman to be a christian philosopher, it could well help.



Hey! I was going to say that......or something like it....

:mrgreen:


Me too, but less eloquently


:lol: An educated man knows when to shout Bollocks! at the top of his voice.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#12  Postby Animavore » Dec 16, 2013 1:16 pm

Oh. I just read my link above. Looks like Diarmaid MacCulloch isn't really a Christian any more. Well he is gay so...


Anyway, you just have to look at the likes of Bart Ehrman and Jown W. Loftus to see that learning your history can actually have a detrimental effect on ones beliefs when you look at it objectively. Especially when you start delving into the lies, the forgeries, the adjustments and blatant propaganda by vested interests all throughout the Bible.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#13  Postby Sendraks » Dec 16, 2013 1:27 pm

Can I return this gift and exchange it for something of equal value?

Oh, it's worthless. I see.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#14  Postby Skinny Puppy » Dec 16, 2013 11:00 pm

five reasons... why.... god.................................

Image
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#15  Postby Matthew Shute » Dec 17, 2013 11:39 am

Indeed, what a yawn-fest. It seems that, on top of being a shameless liar and someone willing to excuse genocide in the right circumstances, WLC is also too lazy or uncreative to make up any new bad arguments for his god. Why does he bother with arguments anyway? He has all but admitted that he's committed to believing in Christianity, no matter what.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#16  Postby Ironclad » Dec 17, 2013 11:47 am

Sendraks wrote:Can I return this gift and exchange it for something of equal value?

Oh, it's worthless. I see.


No no, It is worth its weight in bollocks actually. How would you like them, sautee or fricassee? Merry Crimble.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#17  Postby aban57 » Dec 24, 2013 11:02 am

Animavore wrote:

This last line is totally without merit. An transcendent, unembodied mind doesn't fit any description. It doesn't even make sense.


And it doesn't fit God's description in the Bible :

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, like us: and let him have rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every living thing which goes flat on the earth.
1:27 And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them.


As far as I know, we are not transcendent with unembodied mind.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#18  Postby kennyc » Dec 24, 2013 11:16 am

aban57 wrote:
Animavore wrote:

This last line is totally without merit. An transcendent, unembodied mind doesn't fit any description. It doesn't even make sense.


And it doesn't fit God's description in the Bible :

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, like us: and let him have rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every living thing which goes flat on the earth.
1:27 And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them.


As far as I know, we are not transcendent with unembodied mind.


Ah, but that's just on the surface. :shock:

:lol:
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#19  Postby hackenslash » Dec 24, 2013 12:03 pm

1. God provides the best explanation of the origin of the universe.


Begging the question that the universe had or requires an origin.

Given the scientific evidence we have about our universe and its origins


We don't have any evidence about the origin of the universe, nor whether it had or required one.

and bolstered by arguments presented by philosophers for centuries


Well, since most of those centuries were pre-relativity, and since the contents of the various umbilici of navel-gazers isn't evidence, we can safely discount their input.

it is highly probable that the universe had an absolute beginning.


On what fucking basis?

Since the universe, like everything else, could not have merely popped into being without a cause,


Everything else? Everything? I really do hope that Hawking radiation is unambiguously observed reasonably soon, because a) it will be yet another example of an acausal existence and b) Hawking will win a Nobel Prize, and I think that would be kinda cool.

there must exist a transcendent reality beyond time and space that brought the universe into existence.


Show your working out here. Equivocation on 'cause' perchance?

This entity must therefore be enormously powerful.


Show your working out here. Simple beginning, simple cause? Simpleton.

Only a transcendent, unembodied mind suitably fits that description.


Ah yes, because we have abundant evidence for that, don't we?

God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe.


What fine-tuning?

Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life.


Actually, the only contemporary work by a physicist that I'm aware of that suggests the universe might be fine-tuned for anything is Lee Smolin's on black holes. Are they intelligent, interactive life?

That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist,


Well that rules you out.

the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range.


Actually, they could vary wildly with no discernible effect, as long as the ratios between them aren't altered appreciably. Indeed, we can even remove one of the fundamental forces of nature and the universe would still permit life, making it, in fact, more likely. What was that about fine-tuning again? Surely your celestial peeping-tom, if he were fine-tuning a universe for life, would not bother with such an extraneous addition, especially if it reduced his universe's effectiveness in supporting life?

There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design.


You left one out, namely that it doesn't exist.

The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.


Or the explanation that fine-tuning doesn't exist, and especially not in the sense that you're mangling it.

God provides the best explanation of objective moral values and duties. Even atheists recognize that some things, for example, the Holocaust, are objectively evil.


Objectively? Have you asked any dolphins about this? What about meerkats?

But if atheism is true


Atheism isn't a truth claim, fuckwit.

what basis is there for the objectivity of the moral values we affirm?


Objectivity of moral values? Values can't be objective.

Evolution? Social conditioning? These factors may at best produce in us the subjective feeling that there are objective moral values and duties, but they do nothing to provide a basis for them.


Yet the evidence suggests that they are the basis of our moral values, because they have been defined based on our need to function as social animals.

If human evolution had taken a different path, a very different set of moral feelings might have evolved.


Probably not, because if evolution had taken a different path, we would either not be social animals or the same sorts of constraint on our behaviour would be in place.

By contrast, God Himself serves as the paradigm of goodness, and His commandments constitute our moral duties.


Ah, so stoning unruly children to death in front of the town is a moral duty? Forcing a rape victim to marry her attacker is a moral duty? Or do you just mean the moral duties you cherry-pick because they happen to agree with the general social contract?

Thus, theism provides a better explanation of objective moral values and duties.


Errr, no.

God provides the best explanation of the historical facts concerning Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. Historians have reached something of consensus that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God’s Kingdom had broken into human history,


So we're supposed to rest everything on what somebody thinks somebody thought now? Is that how it works?

and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact.


For which we have what sources again?

Moreover, most historical scholars agree that after his crucifixion Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by a group of female disciples, that various individuals and groups saw appearances of Jesus alive after his death, and that the original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe in Jesus’ resurrection despite their every predisposition to the contrary. I can think of no better explanation of these facts than the one the original disciples gave: God raised Jesus from the dead.


Or we could try a few others:

1. One of his fanbois nicked the body.
2. He was never buried there.
3. He didn't die (there is at least one former historian to most of the royal houses of Europe who thinks the sponge was infused with some soporific).
4. It was made up out of whole cloth.
5. They were delusional.

God can be personally known and experienced.


Known in the biblical sense? :lol:

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Down through history Christians have found through Jesus a personal acquaintance with God that has transformed their lives.


I'm sure Cali's six-foot cockroach transformed his life somewhat.

The good thing is that atheists tend to be very passionate people and want to believe in something. If they would only put aside the slogans for a moment and reexamine their worldview in light of the best philosophical, scientific, and historical evidence we have today, then they, too, would find Christmas worth celebrating!


I did all that, and concluded it was bollocks. Of course, you think we need god to explain the tides, so it's hardly surprising that you're too fucking stupid to understand what the evidence is actually telling us.
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Re: A Christmas gift for atheists -- five reasons why God exists

#20  Postby Moonwatcher » Dec 26, 2013 2:52 am

DoctorE wrote::yawn:...

1. God provides the best explanation of the origin of the universe. Given the scientific evidence we have about our universe and its origins, and bolstered by arguments presented by philosophers for centuries, it is highly probable that the universe had an absolute beginning. Since the universe, like everything else, could not have merely popped into being without a cause, there must exist a transcendent reality beyond time and space that brought the universe into existence. This entity must therefore be enormously powerful. Only a transcendent, unembodied mind suitably fits that description.

2. God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.

3. God provides the best explanation of objective moral values and duties. Even atheists recognize that some things, for example, the Holocaust, are objectively evil. But if atheism is true, what basis is there for the objectivity of the moral values we affirm? Evolution? Social conditioning? These factors may at best produce in us the subjective feeling that there are objective moral values and duties, but they do nothing to provide a basis for them. If human evolution had taken a different path, a very different set of moral feelings might have evolved. By contrast, God Himself serves as the paradigm of goodness, and His commandments constitute our moral duties. Thus, theism provides a better explanation of objective moral values and duties.

4. God provides the best explanation of the historical facts concerning Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. Historians have reached something of consensus that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God’s Kingdom had broken into human history, and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact. Moreover, most historical scholars agree that after his crucifixion Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by a group of female disciples, that various individuals and groups saw appearances of Jesus alive after his death, and that the original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe in Jesus’ resurrection despite their every predisposition to the contrary. I can think of no better explanation of these facts than the one the original disciples gave: God raised Jesus from the dead.

5. God can be personally known and experienced. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Down through history Christians have found through Jesus a personal acquaintance with God that has transformed their lives.

The good thing is that atheists tend to be very passionate people and want to believe in something. If they would only put aside the slogans for a moment and reexamine their worldview in light of the best philosophical, scientific, and historical evidence we have today, then they, too, would find Christmas worth celebrating!

Moar: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/ ... od-exists/


1. The old classics. Gotta love 'em. Things must have a beginning so they were clearly created by a being who has no beginning but he is exempt from the very premise that rationalizes a belief in him.

2. The chance canard and so on.

3. Assumes objective morality and can't deal with "Our feelings about things" does not equate to them being objectively moral or immoral.

4. Most historians (even serious New Testament scholars) accept as historical fact not a single thing he said in number 3 other than some of them accepting a base idea that a man may have formed a loose basis for the myths (and that's just a statement of what some scholars think, not an attempt to bring the HJ argument over here).

5. Zeus can be personally known and experienced. Read some articles about the reawakening of belief in the Olympian gods that has happened in Greece. Any deity a person was indoctrinated to belief in while young or, indeed, any religion and god has people who will tell you all about personally feeling their presence, etc. The personal delusions/ feelings people can conjure up is zero evidence of anything except that people can make themselves believe they feel the presence of deities they want to feel the presence of.
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