A letter to my Pastor

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#41  Postby John Platko » Sep 13, 2015 3:38 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
John Platko wrote:


It is an easily provable fact, (i.e. we have unimpeachable evidence) that Jefferson:

considered himself a Christian.

Citations?


Sure.

From:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16783/16 ... k2H_4_0304

TO DOCTOR BENJAMIN RUSH.

Washington, April 21, 1803.

Dear Sir,

In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic: and I then promised you, that, one day or other, I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other. At the short intervals since these conversations, when I could justifiably abstract my mind from public affairs, the subject has been under my contemplation. But the more I considered it, the more it expanded beyond the measure of either my time or information. In the moment of my late departure from Monticello, I received from Doctor Priestely his little treatise of 'Socrates and Jesus compared.' This being a section of the general view I had taken of the field, it became a subject of reflection while on the road, and unoccupied otherwise. The result was, to arrange in my mind a syllabus, or outline of such an estimate of the comparative merits of Christianity, as I wished to see executed by some one of more leisure and information for the task, than myself. This I now send you, as the only discharge of my promise I can probably ever execute. And in confiding it to you, I know it will not be exposed to the malignant perversions of those who make every word from me a text for new misrepresentations and calumnies. I am moreover averse to the communication of my religious tenets to the public; because it would countenance the presumption of those who have endeavored to draw them before that tribunal, and to seduce public opinion to erect itself into that inquisition over the rights of conscience, which the laws have so justly proscribed. It behoves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others; or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own. It behoves him, too, in his own case, to give no example of concession, betraying the common right of independent opinion, by answering questions of faith, which the laws have left between God and himself. Accept my affectionate salutations.


And

From: http://founders.archives.gov/documents/ ... 09-02-0216

Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thomson, 9 January 1816To Charles Thomson
Monticello Jan. 9. 16.1

My dear and antient friend

An acquaintance of 52. years, for I think ours dates from 1764. calls for an interchange of notice now & then that we remain in existence, the monuments of another age, and examples of a friendship unaffected by the jarring elements, by which we have been surrounded, of revolutions, of government, of party & of opinion. I am reminded of this duty by the receipt, thro’ our friend Dr Patterson, of your Synopsis of the four Evangelists. I had procured it as soon as I saw it advertized, and had become familiar with it’s use. but this copy is the more valued as it comes from your hand. this work bears the stamp of that accuracy which marks every thing from you, and will be useful to those who, not taking things on trust, recur for themselves to the fountain of pure morals. I too have made a wee little book, from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus. it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. a more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen. it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel, and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what it’s Author never said nor saw. they have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognise one feature. if I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side, and I wish I could subjoin a translation of Gassendi’s Syntagma of the doctrines of Epicurus, which, notwithstanding the calumnies of the Stoics, and caricatures of Cicero, is the most rational system remaining of the philosophy of the ancients, as frugal of vicious indulgence, and fruitful of virtue as the hyperbolical extravagancies of his rival sects.

I retain good health, am rather feeble to walk much, but ride with ease, passing two or three hours a day on horseback, and every three or four months taking, in a carriage, a journey of 90. miles to a distant possession, where I pass a good deal of my time. my eyes need the aid of glasses by night, and with small print in the day also; my hearing not quite so sensible as it used to be; no tooth shaking yet, but shivering and shrinking in body from the cold we now experience, my thermometer having been as low as 12.° this morning. my greatest oppression is a correspondence afflictingly laborious, the extent of which I have been long endeavoring to curtail. this keeps me at the drudgery of the writing table all the prime hours of the day, leaving for the gratification of my appetite for reading only what I can steal from the hours of sleep. could I reduce this epistolary corvée within the limits of my friends, and affairs, and give the time redeemed from it to reading and reflection, to history, ethics, mathematics, my life would be as happy as the infirmities of age would admit, and I should look to it’s consummation with the composure of one ‘qui summum nec metuit diem nec optat.’

So much as to myself; and I have given you this string of egotisms in the hope of drawing a similar one from yourself. I have heard from others that you retain your health, a good degree of activity, and all the vivacity & chearfulness of your mind. but I wish to learn it more minutely from yourself. how has time affected your health, your strength, your faculties & spirits? what are your amusements literary & social? tell me every thing about yourself, because all will be interesting to one who retains for you ever the same constant & affectionate friendship & respect.

Th: Jefferson



While you're at it:

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.

-- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817, in Lester Cappon, ed. The Adams-Jefferson Letters, (1959) p. 506, quoted from Jeremy Koselak, "The Exaltation of a Reasonable Deity: Thomas Jefferson’s Critique of Christianity"


Hmmmm. :naughty:

I think putting that quote in a bit more context should clear up what Jefferson was saying.

From: http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/808

One of our fan-coloring biographers, who paints small men as very great, inquired of me lately with real affection too, whether he might consider as authentic, the change of my religion much spoken of in [49] some circles. Now this supposed that they knew what had been my religion before, taking for it the word of their priests, whom I certainly never made the confidants of my creed. My answer was “say nothing of my religion. It is known to my God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life; if that has been honest and dutiful to society, the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one.” Affectionately adieu.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#42  Postby John Platko » Sep 13, 2015 3:43 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
John Platko wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
John Platko wrote:

:scratch:

I'm have trouble understanding what you mean. Are you saying or implying he was a non religious Christian?

I'm pointing out that he did not believe in the Christian god at all, he was a deist.
Ie most of us live in the Western world, which is partly based on Judeo-Christian history/values. Doesnt mean we're all Christians though.


Indeed it does not, but in the case of Jeffereson we have his written testimony that he considered himself a Christain - which is the only claim I made.

A claim for which you've failed to provide a source, let alone a credible one.


I decided not to provide one. :nono: I provided two instead. See here



And I'm having trouble wrapping my head around what a non religious vs religious Christian must be to qualify for the correct category - and who decides.

In the context of my post, it's pointing out that, while Jefferson was raised in a predominantly Christian world, he made it very clear he's a deist an doesn't consider himself part of any particular religion, see the quote above.
Now, are you going to presented this asserted written testimony?


It has been made so.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#43  Postby John Platko » Sep 13, 2015 3:56 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also, would a Christian say this:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.


Would you be so kind as to provide a credible source for that quote linking it to something Jefferson actually said or wrote.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#44  Postby Agrippina » Sep 13, 2015 8:03 am

A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. - Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BCE - 43 BCE)
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#45  Postby John Platko » Sep 13, 2015 1:43 pm



Yes indeed. Those folks couldn't find that quote either. From your link:

Quotation: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

Variations: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Sources consulted: (searching on the words "superstitions," "fables," and "mythology")
1.Papers of Thomas Jefferson Digital Edition
2.Thomas Jefferson Retirement Papers
3.Ford Edition
4.Lipscomb-Bergh Edition (via Google Books)

Earliest known appearance in print: 1998[1]

Earliest known appearance in print, attributed to Jefferson: See above.

Status: We have not found this quotation in any of Jefferson's known writings.


:cheers: Agrippina

But perhaps Thomas Eshuis was just asking a question not implying TJ was involved when he posted.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also, would a Christian say this:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.


:lol:
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#46  Postby John Platko » Sep 14, 2015 1:59 pm

John Platko wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also, would a Christian say this:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.


Would you be so kind as to provide a credible source for that quote linking it to something Jefferson actually said or wrote.


Hmmmmm. This seems to be taking a while. How goes the search, Thomas Eshuis?
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#47  Postby Sendraks » Sep 14, 2015 2:36 pm

John Platko wrote:Hmmmmm. This seems to be taking a while. How goes the search, Thomas Eshuis?


How about you "skip to the end" and just say what it is you're fishing for. Because that is transparently what you are doing John.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#48  Postby John Platko » Sep 14, 2015 3:28 pm

Sendraks wrote:
John Platko wrote:Hmmmmm. This seems to be taking a while. How goes the search, Thomas Eshuis?


How about you "skip to the end" and just say what it is you're fishing for. Because that is transparently what you are doing John.


No fishing on my part. I lived up to my responsibilities and provided extremely credible evidence to support my claim. It seems reasonable to expect what sort of appeared to me to be a claim by Thomas Eshuis to also be supported. Failing that, honest civil discourse usually involves interlocutors acknowledging when they were mistaken.

But, I'm also good with just leaving things where they stand.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#49  Postby Sendraks » Sep 14, 2015 3:38 pm

John Platko wrote:No fishing on my part.


You'll forgive me for being sceptical John, but you're savvy enough to have run that quote through google to verify it yourself. I suspect you have done that, so I'm wondering why you're so keen to get Thomas to provide you with a link.

In short, when it comes to honesty, I do not believe that your request is an honest one. You have a response pre-planned. So why not skip to the end?

John Platko wrote: Failing that, honest civil discourse usually involves interlocutors acknowledging when they were mistaken.


Would that theists ever honoured this.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#50  Postby Agrippina » Sep 14, 2015 4:10 pm

You know what Who cares what some historical figure thought about religion and the basis for it. The fact remains that with all the evidence that we have in 2015, if you still believe in a creator god, and a religion that has passed its sell-b date, you're entitled to believe that, but the rest of us, we just carry on with living the one and only life we're going to experience on this earth. So live this life, with joy, and ecstasy, and pleasure, and enjoyment of every single stimulating perception that comes your way, because before you know it, you'll be facing the inevitable end of that life. Whether you choose to believe that that will lead to an eternal bliss in the company of suicide bombers who only want to make the double-backed animal with virgins is up to you. Personally, I prefer to seize the moment. Take the joy out of what occurs right now. If tomorrow brings pain and suffering, I'll deal with that, but to forego this moment, this pleasure, this enjoyment is a worse sin than the enjoyment of this moment this pleasure.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#51  Postby The_Metatron » Sep 14, 2015 6:00 pm

Sendraks wrote:
John Platko wrote:No fishing on my part.

You'll forgive me for being sceptical John, but you're savvy enough to have run that quote through google to verify it yourself. I suspect you have done that, so I'm wondering why you're so keen to get Thomas to provide you with a link.

In short, when it comes to honesty, I do not believe that your request is an honest one. You have a response pre-planned. So why not skip to the end?

John Platko wrote: Failing that, honest civil discourse usually involves interlocutors acknowledging when they were mistaken.

Would that theists ever honoured this.

This is the same as when John casually plopped out his assertion that Thomas Jefferson was a christian, never bothering to amplify that he was in no way equivalent to the common modern-day meaning of the label.

Hence, hanging the credibility of Thomas Jefferson onto christianity, as if to use that connection explain to someone who is exploring their own worldview that christianity is just A-Ok. As if to say, "It was good enough for Thomas Jefferson, it must be good enough for you.".

It's a common dishonest tactic, John Platko.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#52  Postby John Platko » Sep 14, 2015 6:11 pm

Sendraks wrote:
John Platko wrote:No fishing on my part.


You'll forgive me for being sceptical John, but you're savvy enough to have run that quote through google to verify it yourself. I suspect you have done that, so I'm wondering why you're so keen to get Thomas to provide you with a link.


Well given my Christian bent I suppose I'll forgive you- especially since you smothered it in a compliment. ;) And while it is indeed true that when it comes to Thomas Jefferson quotes I have found it imprudent to NOT verify their authenticity- as I have done with all of mine.

However, as I'm sure you understand, it can be rather difficult to prove a negative, i.e. prove that quote didn't come from TJ. And at least when it comes to Thomas Eshuis posts, I have come to expect a high degree of accuracy and precision. So, even though some who seem like they should know say that quote is bogus- perhaps Thomas Eshuis knows better. I'd like to know where he got it and why he posted it. How does that quote fit into his requests for a citation for my initial claim (I didn't actually use a quote). And what's up with:

While you're at it:

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.

-- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817, in Lester Cappon, ed. The Adams-Jefferson Letters, (1959) p. 506, quoted from Jeremy Koselak, "The Exaltation of a Reasonable Deity: Thomas Jefferson’s Critique of Christianity"



Which to my pseudo random simulated annealing ... heuristic seems like a quote mine from:

From: http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/808

One of our fan-coloring biographers, who paints small men as very great, inquired of me lately with real affection too, whether he might consider as authentic, the change of my religion much spoken of in [49] some circles. Now this supposed that they knew what had been my religion before, taking for it the word of their priests, whom I certainly never made the confidants of my creed. My answer was “say nothing of my religion. It is known to my God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life; if that has been honest and dutiful to society, the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one.” Affectionately adieu.


To me, the quote Thomas Eshuis provided takes on a rather different meaning in the fuller context.


In short, when it comes to honesty, I do not believe that your request is an honest one. You have a response pre-planned. So why not skip to the end?


It is true that I have a pre-planned response to the event of Thomas Eschuis providing a credible source for the quote in question. It is: Thank you! The remainder of my response will have to wait until I see the complete context. I see nothing dishonest about any of this on my part. But by all means, present your evidence for my so called dishonesty.


John Platko wrote: Failing that, honest civil discourse usually involves interlocutors acknowledging when they were mistaken.


Would that theists ever honoured this.


ever? :naughty:
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#53  Postby John Platko » Sep 14, 2015 6:38 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
John Platko wrote:No fishing on my part.

You'll forgive me for being sceptical John, but you're savvy enough to have run that quote through google to verify it yourself. I suspect you have done that, so I'm wondering why you're so keen to get Thomas to provide you with a link.

In short, when it comes to honesty, I do not believe that your request is an honest one. You have a response pre-planned. So why not skip to the end?

John Platko wrote: Failing that, honest civil discourse usually involves interlocutors acknowledging when they were mistaken.

Would that theists ever honoured this.

This is the same as when John casually plopped out his assertion that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian


:nono: I made no such assertion in this thread. Rather, I made the assertion that Thomas Jefferson considered himself a Christian. Please do not misrepresent my comments. I believe we have a rule about doing such things.

My actual assertion can be found here.

And in an effort to clear up any misunderstanding I reiterated my assertion here.





, never bothering to amplify that he was in no way equivalent to the common modern-day meaning of the label.


There is no single common modern-day meaning of the label "Christian". More like a rich spectrum of meanings.



Hence, hanging the credibility of Thomas Jefferson onto christianity, as if to use that connection explain to someone who is exploring their own worldview that christianity is just A-Ok. As if to say, "It was good enough for Thomas Jefferson, it must be good enough for you.".

It's a common dishonest tactic, John Platko.


My intent was nothing of the sort. My intent was simply to give someone exploring religious ideas the opportunity to see Christianity from the perspective of Thomas Jefferson's brilliant mind. Not because it is some final word on the matter, but because it gives perspective to the diversity of views possible on the subject. It also gives perspective on the diversity of approaches one can take to grapple with the subject. In Jefferson's case, he took scissors to the Bible, (in multiple languages) and cut out all that he thought was crap so he'd be left with the diamonds. And although he was not in complete agreement with what was he best effort to understand who Jesus was and what he believed, he was in enough agreement to, as I have provided evidence for in this thread, consider himself a Christian.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#54  Postby The_Metatron » Sep 14, 2015 10:04 pm

Yeah, yeah, John Platko. I don't buy what you're selling.

I've been involved in enough conversations with you to have a better than casual understanding of how you post.

You could have explained that Jefferson's idea of christianity is nothing like is common today. But, you didn't. You knew it was dramatically and fundamentally different, yet you said nothing. You offered no links to anything explaining Jefferson's views, when you knew exactly where they exist.

Why is this, John Platko?

You didn't say a fucking thing about it until you were called to task for your oversimplification.

Tell us all how honest that is.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#55  Postby John Platko » Sep 15, 2015 1:33 pm

The_Metatron wrote:Yeah, yeah, John Platko. I don't buy what you're selling.

I've been involved in enough conversations with you to have a better than casual understanding of how you post.



Really, I get the impression you are incapable of reading the actual words I put in my comments and taking them at face value. Instead you seem to me to be compelled by some demon(s) to weave some complex fantasy on what evil I am trying to promote. Frankly, I think most/all of your comments on my posts deserve to be moved to the conspiracy theory section of the forum - I'd rather debunk them there- where they belong.



You could have explained that Jefferson's idea of christianity is nothing like is common today. But, you didn't. You knew it was dramatically and fundamentally different, yet you said nothing. You offered no links to anything explaining Jefferson's views, when you knew exactly where they exist.

Why is this, John Platko?



I already explained that to you here. But if at first you don't succeed, try, try ...

My intent was not to give the op my impressions of Thomas Jefferson. :nono: Rather I made a simple suggestion that exploring the idea space around Thomas Jefferson's thoughts on Jesus and the Bible might be helpful. And then, to help explain why this might be so I pointed out a fact: Thomas Jefferson considered himself a Christian.

This is not an obscure topic. No further links are needed. All that is needed is for one to type "Jefferson", and "Bible" into google and you're off and running.


You didn't say a fucking thing about it until you were called to task for falsely accused of your an imagined oversimplification.

FIFY


Tell us all how honest that is.


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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#56  Postby The_Metatron » Sep 15, 2015 2:36 pm

Still don't buy it. You write ambiguously when it suits you. You possess the ability to be clear, but choose not to be so.

No worries, John Platko, we all know why. It leaves lots of weasel room.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#57  Postby NamelessFaceless » Sep 15, 2015 3:12 pm

Zadocfish2 wrote:Been about a year since I posted here long ago. Man. Long story short, I decided that RatSkep was a detriment to my faith and gave it up. As for the letter: After several replies back-and-forth to my pastor, I noticed that he only replied to about 1-3 points in the post and didn't acknowlege the majority of it.

Finally, when I said "there is literally no reason to believe", he answered with the argument from conversions, ie "I have converted lost people to Christianity, so it must be true", and I gave up the discussion and ceded that he was right. At that point I knew he wouldn't give me any form of rational answer (just about any religion in the world could make that same claim to "truth"), so I gave up. I decided to have faith on my own and cut my overly-secular ties.

Now I'm back, I know not for how long, after being again disparaged by this article: http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/i ... -christian) It basically says that saying you're a Christian without believing the whole Bible as inerrant truth is wrong. I'm not quite sure how to parse that, since it seems so well-supported.

Well, good to be back for a bit.


:hugs: Welcome back. I just read your OP for the first time and I thought it was really beautiful and touching. I was really hoping your pastor would answer with more honesty than it sounds like he did. I was raised as a Southern Baptist, going to church all day on Sundays and again on Wednesday evenings, so I know exactly what you meant about the brainwashing. I started having questions that were not being satisfactorily answered too, but I tried to maintain my belief until I finally just couldn't do it anymore. I went through a long period of just trying not to think about it, but when my husband told me he wanted us to start going to church I had to really confront my beliefs and that was when I finally admitted to myself I no longer believed, and hadn't for a very long time.

Some people experience a moment of epiphany, but for me it was really a process. You said this in your OP that I found really insightful:

But no, it's what that Sacrifice gains us that disturbs me. Our reward is slavery to God, now and for eternity. I know we're supposed to consider that a good thing, but how is slavery good? We're said to be free from sin... sin that we were born into through no fault of our own, and freed into the custody of God, who wants us to serve and worship Him for eternity and the refusal of this "freedom" means eternal suffering.


That moment when I finally acknowledged to myself that I didn't believe - and didn't need to - it was like being released from slavery. Even today, I see people worrying about what God wants for them, or feeling sad because they feel they're not living up to God's expectations, or something similar, and my heart hurts for them. I'm a good person, I treat people with respect, I love my family, and I feel good about myself. I'm free.

Anyway, good luck to you in your journey, whichever path you take. I'll be thinking about you. :hugs:
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#58  Postby John Platko » Sep 15, 2015 3:48 pm

The_Metatron wrote:Still don't buy it. You write ambiguously when it suits you. You possess the ability to be clear, but choose not to be so.


:scratch: I think there's a compliment in there somewhere. Thank you!



No worries, John Platko, we all know why. It leaves lots of weasel room.


What exactly do you find ambiguous or unclear about:



You might find it helpful to check out how Thomas Jefferson dealt with the Bible - he considered himself a Christian.


Surely at this point in the thread you understand that it is a fact that Thomas Jeffereson considered himself a Christian- right?
He left no weasel room about that fact.
I like to imagine ...
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#59  Postby The_Metatron » Sep 16, 2015 12:30 am

John Platko wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:Still don't buy it. You write ambiguously when it suits you. You possess the ability to be clear, but choose not to be so.

:scratch: I think there's a compliment in there somewhere. Thank you!

There wasn't.
John Platko wrote:
No worries, John Platko, we all know why. It leaves lots of weasel room.

What exactly do you find ambiguous or unclear about:

You might find it helpful to check out how Thomas Jefferson dealt with the Bible - he considered himself a Christian.

Surely at this point in the thread you understand that it is a fact that Thomas Jeffereson considered himself a Christian- right?
He left no weasel room about that fact.

He wasn't the one who wrote in weasel terms, was he? He went on to explain exactly what he meant when he said that. You, on the other hand, found it useful to omit that explanation.

Again, you know perfectly well that Jefferson's concept of christianity bears no resemblance to modern colloquial usage, such as you wrote. You were the one who established plenty of room to weasel by your oversimplified reply to the OP. You know it, and more importantly, so does everyone who read what you wrote.
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Re: A letter to my Pastor

#60  Postby Zadocfish2 » Sep 16, 2015 4:11 am

I will say, though, that my father ended up giving me a much better explanation of my issues than my pastor did.
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