TopCat wrote:Begs the question, though, is truth the most important thing? I've been wondering recently; maybe it is for some and not for others. I haven't really formulated the question yet, nor thought it through, but I can feel a thread coming on.

Truth or Oxygen? Cake or Death?

TopCat wrote:Begs the question, though, is truth the most important thing?

What does? Certainly nothing I've said remotely begs that question.

hackenslash wrote:

TopCat wrote:Begs the question, though, is truth the most important thing?

What does? Certainly nothing I've said remotely begs that question.

The suggestion that what religious apologists do is on a par with genocide. Is that not what you meant?

I've shamelessly filled in a number of gaps and jumped ahead from that though. Just musing aloud. I should probably have said "triggers the question in my mind", rather than implying a formal link from what you said to what I took from it.

Ah, I see. It's the gap-fillers that beg the question. I didn't actually suggest that it was merely the lies that put him on a par with genocides.

hackenslash wrote:I didn't actually suggest that it was merely the lies that put him on a par with genocides.

Accepted. Care to elaborate a little?

He's an active advocate, credible in the eyes of many, of the most toxic and immoral idea dreamt up by the mind of man, an idea that lies at the root of some of the worst ills in history, up to and including at least one of those genocides.

hackenslash wrote:the most toxic and immoral idea dreamt up by the mind of man

To qualify as this, perhaps just a little more detail?

Original sin? The need for atonement? A meddling god? As a specialist in false multichotomies, I realise these aren't the only options

I appreciate that effort spent guessing your precise meaning would do me good in the long term, but it is Sunday after all, so throw me a bone here?

Vicarious redemption. Sorry I thought it was obvious. The examples you gave aren't particularly toxic or immoral, just fucking stupid. No, the really toxic and immoral idea at the heart of christianity is the idea that you can be absolved of responsibility for your actions. You can get people to do some pretty heinous shit if you get them believing that.

hackenslash wrote:Vicarious redemption. Sorry I thought it was obvious.

Ah yes, my apologies. As an ex-cunt, redemption is inevitably vicarious. I should have been clearer in my reference to atonement.

No disagreement there

Edit: actually, I'm not sure about 'no disagreement'. I may return to this when I feel brave. Certainly vicarious redemption is extremely bad, although (and I grant that it's not the same) there are times when forgiveness is ok, contingent upon repentance.