Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#41  Postby Moses de la Montagne » Oct 14, 2013 4:02 pm

LoneWolfEburg wrote:

And to be fair, Aquinas was, of course, a product of his culture and his time. Injecting Christian theology into ethics was the thing to do.

Yeah, you could make an argument that Aquinas' scholastic approach was partially a precursor to all that fluffy Enlightenment hoopla.


There's probably some truth to that. Although I concur with Archibald that "rational Christianity" is an oxymoron, I do think that's what Aquinas was attempting to have. He felt that Christianity could be systematic and logical. Eastern Orthodox Christians tend to loathe this approach, contending that it robs the faith of mystery and reduces everything to what they consider "Western legalism" or "Western rationalism." That the Enlightenment occurred in the West may be a testament to the unintended consequences of Thomas' method.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#42  Postby archibald » Oct 14, 2013 6:54 pm

I can imagine how peeved he might be if he were around to hear that. :)
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#43  Postby Epicure » Oct 15, 2013 3:41 am

Moses de la Montagne wrote:
archibald wrote:Whilst I inevitably have difficulty not joining a thread where sex is the topic, I do wonder what the point is in dredging the opinions of some superstitious medieval baldy guy for any useful or enlightening material, bar the fun of seeing a confused mind expressed in writing.


I'd say it's useful because Aquinas' popularity has seen some improvement in Catholic circles in the past few years. Here in the U.S., "traditional Catholicism" is trendy (at least, among those stalwarts who remain Catholic despite the pedophilia scandals). Along with this trend comes an Aquinas revival. Edward Feser, for example, who wrote a book purporting to refute the so-called "New Atheism," is a big-time Thomist.


Why, without guys like Thomas Aquinas, we'd never have Combustion Engines or have been able to develop theories of Quantum Mechanics, according to many medievalists. :lol:

Edit: Oops, Moses already brought it up. But, without Aristotle, there would be no Aquinas. He's just trying to square Greco-Roman reasoning with Christianity.
Edit2: I guess I should finish reading the thread before posting, since this point has already been made. I blame the fact that I was in a lion-stance and it took all the blood from my head. :grin:
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#44  Postby John Platko » Oct 31, 2013 4:56 pm

It's great to see people shinning a light in the dark dusty corners of Aquinas thought because even though it may be hard for some to believe, the thought process of Aquinas, along with most (almost all) of his conclusions, are alive and well in the thought process of the Catholic church today. Aquinas thought is for many/most priests and Catholic scholars the "reason" behind their faith.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#45  Postby Matthew Shute » Oct 31, 2013 5:57 pm

Welcome to the forum, John. :cheers:

Yes, the intellectual bankruptcy of much accepted religious "thought" in the RCC is always worth exposing in its full vacuity and inanity.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#46  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 31, 2013 6:26 pm

Regarding the subject matter of this thread : cornflakes were originally used not for eating but for preventing
masturbation. And staying with that theme : Saint Teresa is supposed to have regularly abused herself with a
crucifix because the naked Christ turned her on so much. Now I have no idea if the second one is true or not
but the first one most definitely is. Just ask Stephen Fry if you do not believe me
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#47  Postby The_Metatron » Oct 31, 2013 6:46 pm

"Abused herself"? Why is that abuse? Like I care what that little sadistic bitch did with her favorite crucifix, though.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#48  Postby mindhack » Oct 31, 2013 6:52 pm

The_Metatron wrote:"Abused herself"? Why is that abuse?

Raped she was! Raped by her insidious hands :nono:
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#49  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 31, 2013 7:21 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:Regarding the subject matter of this thread : cornflakes were originally used not for eating but for preventing masturbation. And staying with that theme : Saint Teresa is supposed to have regularly abused herself with a
crucifix because the naked Christ turned her on so much. Now I have no idea if the second one is true or not
but the first one most definitely is. Just ask Stephen Fry if you do not believe me


The second of your suppositions here sounds spookily like the sort of shenanigans covered in Aldous Huxley's The Devils of Loudon.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#50  Postby John Platko » Oct 31, 2013 7:31 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:Welcome to the forum, John. :cheers:

Yes, the intellectual bankruptcy of much accepted religious "thought" in the RCC is always worth exposing in its full vacuity and inanity.


Thanks for the welcome.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#51  Postby OlivierK » Oct 31, 2013 7:37 pm

The thing that gets me about modern Thomists is that they implicitly admit that Catholicism has come up with nothing better in the many centuries since. Given the utter paucity of Aquinas' arguments (the Quinque Viae fail even the most basic logical scrutiny), it says a lot that many Catholics think he's still the cream of their crop.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#52  Postby Zwaarddijk » Oct 31, 2013 7:55 pm

What no one is this thread has realized, btw, is that when Aquinas spoke of rape, he did not consider whether the raped part was into it or not - rape was having sex with a woman without her father's consent (or the consent of some other male head of the family to which she belongs). So, sex against her consent is ok as long as you're married to her, and marrying her is mostly up to whether her father consents. Even if she consents to running away with you and having sex, and the father doesn't consent, it's rape in the legal systems of Aquinas' time, and the idea that her consent even matters had never entered the minds of people of the time. That was stupid of them, of course, but it also means that Aquinas isn't directly saying it's more ok to violently take a woman against her will - he's already saying that in accepting the marriage customs of his time - he's just saying it's more ok to have sex with a woman against her father's will than it is to masturbate. When understanding this, his stance might actually be somewhat less controversial on this particular question.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#53  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 31, 2013 8:06 pm

Calilasseia wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Regarding the subject matter of this thread : cornflakes were originally used not for eating but for preventing masturbation. And staying with that theme : Saint Teresa is supposed to have regularly abused herself with a
crucifix because the naked Christ turned her on so much. Now I have no idea if the second one is true or not
but the first one most definitely is. Just ask Stephen Fry if you do not believe me

The second of your suppositions here sounds spookily like the sort
of shenanigans covered in Aldous Huxleys The Devils of Loudon

I was thinking more of The Devils by Ken Russell myself
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#54  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 31, 2013 8:26 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Regarding the subject matter of this thread : cornflakes were originally used not for eating but for preventing masturbation. And staying with that theme : Saint Teresa is supposed to have regularly abused herself with a
crucifix because the naked Christ turned her on so much. Now I have no idea if the second one is true or not
but the first one most definitely is. Just ask Stephen Fry if you do not believe me


The second of your suppositions here sounds spookily like the sort of shenanigans covered in Aldous Huxleys The Devils of Loudon


I was thinking more of The Devils by Ken Russell myself


Which, of course, was based upon the very same book I've just mentioned. :)
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#55  Postby John Platko » Oct 31, 2013 9:21 pm

OlivierK wrote:The thing that gets me about modern Thomists is that they implicitly admit that Catholicism has come up with nothing better in the many centuries since. Given the utter paucity of Aquinas' arguments (the Quinque Viae fail even the most basic logical scrutiny), it says a lot that many Catholics think he's still the cream of their crop.


Most Catholics have no clue about what Aquinas said or that Aristotle has so much influence on their ideas on morality. But Aquinas's work remains the foundation for Catholic morals and an effort by some outspoken priests and other Catholics are trying to bring back the middle ages by breathing new life into his way of "thought". Two notable ones are Father Robert Barron, who has become a visible Catholic spokesman, and Edward Feser. They are very effective at convincing people that Aquinas represents logic at its best. Being a Catholic, I'm hoping that Pope Francis can at least take some of the air at of this middle age revival - not that Thomas ever went away.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#56  Postby archibald » Oct 31, 2013 11:59 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:Regarding the subject matter of this thread : cornflakes were originally used not for eating but for preventing
masturbation.....


Stephen Fry did say this, but is it true?

I have to admit, it sounds like a joke. :)

Anyhows, I've tried it, and they don't.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#57  Postby DougC » Nov 01, 2013 12:16 am

The inventor of cornflakes, John Harvey Kellogg and his Battle Creek Sanitarium where paradied in the novel and film The Road to Wellville. I dont know if they where thought to prevent self abuse/(love?). He was a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but was later seen by the church as holding pantheist views.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#58  Postby reisender » Nov 01, 2013 1:00 am

Well fuck me, the name of my high school was St.Thomas Aquinas. I knew nothing of the guy throughout school, didn't care.
I wish I had been more vocal back then in my distaste for religion.

One of the more memorable classroom moments was where the religion teacher tried to tell us that masturbation was wrong. We were all in FULL denial that anyone masturbated and had anyone found out that you masturbated, you would have been ostracised. However, we couldn't all help laughing at teacher talking about "selfishness" and "not sharing your love" while talking about wanking.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#59  Postby Moses de la Montagne » Nov 01, 2013 1:01 am

Zwaarddijk wrote:What no one is this thread has realized, btw, is that when Aquinas spoke of rape, he did not consider whether the raped part was into it or not - rape was having sex with a woman without her father's consent (or the consent of some other male head of the family to which she belongs). So, sex against her consent is ok as long as you're married to her, and marrying her is mostly up to whether her father consents. Even if she consents to running away with you and having sex, and the father doesn't consent, it's rape in the legal systems of Aquinas' time, and the idea that her consent even matters had never entered the minds of people of the time. That was stupid of them, of course, but it also means that Aquinas isn't directly saying it's more ok to violently take a woman against her will - he's already saying that in accepting the marriage customs of his time - he's just saying it's more ok to have sex with a woman against her father's will than it is to masturbate. When understanding this, his stance might actually be somewhat less controversial on this particular question.


But I think the consent of the woman did matter. Otherwise Aquinas would not have said of rape," force is employed sometimes both towards the virgin and towards her father; and sometimes towards the father and not to the virgin." So although (true) it mattered greatly what the father thought, the woman did have some small say in consenting to the matter. Her father could overrule her decision, of course, and give her away to the would-be rapist. But if she refused consent and her father refused his as well, then that was rape. And Aquinas believed masturbation was worse.
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Re: Aquinas: Masturbation is worse than rape

#60  Postby Moses de la Montagne » Nov 01, 2013 1:10 am

DougC wrote:The inventor of cornflakes, John Harvey Kellogg and his Battle Creek Sanitarium where paradied in the novel and film The Road to Wellville. I dont know if they where thought to prevent self abuse/(love?). He was a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but was later seen by the church as holding pantheist views.


Good catch. The Road to Wellville is a fun book. I wouldn't be surprised, actually, if there was some bizarre connection between the cereal and masturbation. Kellogg was fanatical about daily enemas, and equally as strident in combating onanism. I believe he advocated the circumcision of adult males in severe cases. Ouch! The johnsons of the Shechemites, according to the bible, were still painfully sore even three days after their circumcision—so much so that they were all sitting ducks when the Israelites came to kill them.

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