Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

...he only needs to do a few things:

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#41  Postby Agrippina » Jan 21, 2014 1:47 pm

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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#42  Postby scott1328 » Jan 21, 2014 2:06 pm

wrong thread
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#43  Postby colubridae » Jan 21, 2014 10:08 pm

DarthHelmet86 wrote:The new pope knows how to mouth the right words, knows how to look like a nice old man who isn't trying to be the big bad evil mean pope. But he is still the head of a group that hides priests who touch kids, he still has a horrible history in Argentina (my Argentinian friend has lots to say about Mr Pope and none of it is nice), the church still promotes hatred and bigotry the world over. Just because he knows how to mouth the right nice words doesn't make him right or nice.

Good on the writer of this article in calling for more than just words, good on him/her for calling for action from the pope. I highly doubt we will see any action of any sort only more words.



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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#44  Postby colubridae » Jan 21, 2014 10:27 pm

Agrippina wrote:Why illogical? I've long said that the Vatican was against the tenets of Christianity, "poverty" and "humility." It's disgraceful that the rulers of the Church live in opulence while some of its followers are among the poorest people in the world. He's not suggesting that all the buildings be sold off, just some of them.



jaydot wrote:where benny was the vinegar, frankie is the honey. they are both roman catholics, ipso facto hypocrites.

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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#45  Postby willhud9 » Jan 22, 2014 3:11 am

Agrippina wrote:Image


and what in Luke 18 makes you think Jesus was talking beyond the rich, young, ruler and was talking to the church?

Like I said, that is no better than the hyper literal fundamentalists who assume everything in the Bible is living and inerrant.
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#46  Postby Onyx8 » Jan 22, 2014 5:31 am

Because that is what it says?
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#47  Postby willhud9 » Jan 22, 2014 5:32 am

Onyx8 wrote:Because that is what it says?


Where?

Jesus is talking to the church? No he is talking to just one man in a specific context.
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#48  Postby Agrippina » Jan 22, 2014 5:40 am

willhud9 wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Because that is what it says?


Where?

Jesus is talking to the church? No he is talking to just one man in a specific context.


That is what the writer wanted to portray. The reality is that Christianity is based on the idea of not pursuing wealth on earth, but rather "mansions" in heaven. Whatever is ascribed to "Jesus said" doesn't mean anything. The words are there, who was saying them, or to whom they were addressed isn't important. "Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor." Those words are important, not who said them. This is exactly what we're saying the church should do, sell everything and give the money to the poor.
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#49  Postby willhud9 » Jan 22, 2014 6:18 am

Agrippina wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Because that is what it says?


Where?

Jesus is talking to the church? No he is talking to just one man in a specific context.


That is what the writer wanted to portray.


That is presumptuous. Why is your interpretation better than mine?


The reality is that Christianity is based on the idea of not pursuing wealth on earth, but rather "mansions" in heaven. Whatever is ascribed to "Jesus said" doesn't mean anything. The words are there, who was saying them, or to whom they were addressed isn't important. "Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor." Those words are important, not who said them. This is exactly what we're saying the church should do, sell everything and give the money to the poor.


The reality is Christianity is built on humility first and foremost to God. Having money can be distracting as it was to the rich young ruler. is the Catholic church obsessed with money? Or does it just have a lot of it? There is a huge difference, one which you cannot judge from outward appearances alone.
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#50  Postby Agrippina » Jan 22, 2014 8:20 am

willhud9 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Because that is what it says?


Where?

Jesus is talking to the church? No he is talking to just one man in a specific context.


That is what the writer wanted to portray.


That is presumptuous. Why is your interpretation better than mine?

Mine isn't based on the idea that the words were part of an actual conversation.

I have studied the reporting of actual conversations in the ancient world, in some depth. It is the general consensus of historians that even when the words are reported from actual conversations, in the absence of modern recording technology, the words written down in reports as actual words, are often what the writer thought the people might have said in a given situation.

2. The introduction of speeches became a regular part of ancient historiography, and came in again at the revival of literature, not quite going out, in Italy and France at least, till the end of the last century. But the followers of Thucydides were obeying an established tradition; he was the writer who had done most to establish it; indeed, he might properly be called its founder. The place of the speeches in his design was due to special influences of the age as well as to the peculiar bent of his mind; we have to consider what had been done before him, and the plan on which he went to work...

Herodotus is distinguished from his predecessors, first of all, by an epic unity of plan. It is hard to say exactly how far he was superior to them in his method of verifying facts; his diligence and his honesty are both unquestionable, and we know that he attempted—not very scientifically, perhaps—to decide between conflicting versions of the same story. But in the dramatic element of his narrative he shows the true freedom of an epic poet. In his History, as in the Iliad and the Odyssey, the author seldom speaks when there is a fair pretext for making the characters speak. The habitual use of "direct speech," or easy dialogue, is evidently a different thing from the insertion of set speeches: there is nothing necessarily rhetorical about it. It is merely the vivid way of describing thought and motive, the way natural to a simple age; and in the case of a work meant to be heard rather than to be read, like the early Greek prose works, it has the obvious recommendation of helping to keep the attention alive...

Secondly, there were the prose writers whom he calls chroniclers λογογράφοι; and these he characterises by saying that they "compiled[23]" their works with a view to attracting audiences at a recitation, rather than to truth; dealing largely, as they did, with traditions which could no longer be verified, but had passed into the region of myth. Now with such chroniclers Herodotus was undoubtedly classed by Thucydides...

"Set speeches," says Voltaire, "are a sort of oratorical lie, which the historian used to allow himself in old times. He used to make his heroes say what they might have said....At the present day these fictions are no longer tolerated. If one put into the mouth of a prince a speech which he had never made, the historian would be regarded as a rhetorician[28]." How did it happen that Thucydides allowed himself this "oratorical lie,"—Thucydides, whose strongest characteristic is devotion to the truth, impatience of every inroad which fiction makes into the province of history, laborious persistence in the task of separating fact from fable; Thucydides, who was not constrained, like later writers of the old world, by an established literary tradition; who had no Greek predecessors in the field of history, except those chroniclers whom he despised precisely because they sacrificed truth to effect? Thucydides might rather have been expected to express himself on this wise: "The chroniclers have sometimes pleased their hearers by reporting the very words spoken. But, as I could not give the words, I have been content to give the substance, when I could learn it."

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Essays_and_Addresses/The_Speeches_of_Thucydides

In his History of the Peloponnesian War, Thuycidides applies the above reporting of direct speech, with the disclaimer that he is writing what was reported to him by word of mouth. In other words, he didn't have the notes that someone made at a speech and was therefore reporting the words that sounded like they fitted a particular occasion.

It is this rule that you apply to direct speech in the Bible. None of them can be taken as actual words, spoken under actual circumstances, by actual people. You just accept that words written as direct speech, before the invention of note-taking are the words of the writer, and not the actual words spoken by the reported people.


The reality is that Christianity is based on the idea of not pursuing wealth on earth, but rather "mansions" in heaven. Whatever is ascribed to "Jesus said" doesn't mean anything. The words are there, who was saying them, or to whom they were addressed isn't important. "Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor." Those words are important, not who said them. This is exactly what we're saying the church should do, sell everything and give the money to the poor.


The reality is Christianity is built on humility first and foremost to God. Having money can be distracting as it was to the rich young ruler. is the Catholic church obsessed with money? Or does it just have a lot of it? There is a huge difference, one which you cannot judge from outward appearances alone.


Sorry but outward displays of wealth demonstrate an obsession with the accumulation thereof. True humility and a disinterest in displaying one's wealth is demonstrated by sharing it with less fortunate people. There is some truth in the idea that it is crass to display opulence, or to boast about one's possessions, and wealth. If the "reality of Christianity is built on humility first and foremost to God" then why does the pope dress in silk and his cardinals and bishops dress like potentates. If they gave the money they spent on their clothes alone, and gave it to even if only the people they employ in the form of food handouts, I could have a little more respect. There is nothing humble about this display of gold and silk:

Image

I know Pope Francis has said he won't wear the red satin slippers or sit on the gold throne, big whoop! Why were the red satin slippers and the gold throne necessary in the first place?
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#51  Postby babel » Jan 22, 2014 8:26 am

willhud9 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Because that is what it says?


Where?

Jesus is talking to the church? No he is talking to just one man in a specific context.


That is what the writer wanted to portray.


That is presumptuous. Why is your interpretation better than mine?


The reality is that Christianity is based on the idea of not pursuing wealth on earth, but rather "mansions" in heaven. Whatever is ascribed to "Jesus said" doesn't mean anything. The words are there, who was saying them, or to whom they were addressed isn't important. "Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor." Those words are important, not who said them. This is exactly what we're saying the church should do, sell everything and give the money to the poor.


The reality is Christianity is built on humility first and foremost to God. Having money can be distracting as it was to the rich young ruler. is the Catholic church obsessed with money? Or does it just have a lot of it? There is a huge difference, one which you cannot judge from outward appearances alone.
And neither can you, I assume?

So we're left with the teachings of their own doctrine as put forward by their own demigod and documented in their own holy book: humility, suffering, poverty, compassion with the less fortunate and their own situation, which is diametrically opposed to the very core of their teachings. I'm sure there's a word for that... :ask:
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#52  Postby Agrippina » Jan 22, 2014 12:28 pm

Indeed.
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#53  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 22, 2014 12:40 pm

Hypocritical?
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#54  Postby babel » Jan 22, 2014 4:46 pm

Milton Jones: "Just bought a broken second hand time machine - plan to fix it, have lots of adventures then go back and not buy it, he he idiots.."
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#55  Postby willhud9 » Jan 22, 2014 6:13 pm



Because one corrupt priest represents all of the church. Right. I clearly see your logic. :doh:

Does one corrupt Scotsman make all of Scotland corrupt? Didn't think so.
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#56  Postby babel » Jan 22, 2014 6:29 pm

Why was he using the Vatican bank to do this operation? Why did he take the risk of physically bringing the money across the border? What need does an organization promoting austerity have for a very own bank?

Besides, from the OP, it says another priest was detained and another 50 are under investigation.
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Re: Atheist responds to Pope Francis's new year invitation

#57  Postby Agrippina » Jan 22, 2014 7:26 pm

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