Depends on your 'audience'; a Christian will of course have various explanations / apologetics for these claims. But for others it might be fun.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that he did do a couple of things that were considered unlawful/wrong, but when put on the spot about it, he basically said "Hey, I'm the Son of Man don't you know, and the Son of Man can do whatever he wants, being the Son of Man and all". To which a Christian would say "Yup, he was right on the money there!".

If I can be bothered, I might look it up again - it's been a while.

Byron wrote:Ah, we've not had racism/xenophobia yet: a gem from Matthew c.15:-

Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon. Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon." But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, "Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us."

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."

He answered, "It is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs."

She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered her, "Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed instantly.

This has caused no end of consternation for preachers, who insist that, of course, and counter to all appearances, Matthew isn't portraying Christ as a racial bigot. It's all one of his clever riddles, donchaknow.

Yeah, 'course. 'Course.

Cheers, Byron. That's actually two for the price of one, as it reminded me of the Good Samaritan sketch by Mitchell and Webb:

Animavore wrote:Just out of interest, which Jesus are going as? Robe wearing, happy Jesus or flayed and beaten on-his-way-to-the-cross, thorny town wearing Jesus?

The former, I think. It's quicker and easier. Although, a mate of mine went as Jeebus to a Halloween party a few years back and he made himself an enormous cardboard cross and a thorny crown I could've borrowed them if he's still got them. It's a bit latte now, though. The party's tonight and I can't be bothrered to drive the 50 mile round-trip to get them.

John P. M. wrote:Depends on your 'audience'; a Christian will of course have various explanations / apologetics for these claims. But for others it might be fun.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that he did do a couple of things that were considered unlawful/wrong, but when put on the spot about it, he basically said "Hey, I'm the Son of Man don't you know, and the Son of Man can do whatever he wants, being the Son of Man and all". To which a Christian would say "Yup, he was right on the money there!".

If I can be bothered, I might look it up again - it's been a while.

I'm pretty sure that most of the guests will be non-religious. Though it's for my mate's 30th, so he'll have family there. His Dad is Sally Army, apparently.

John P. M. wrote:Depends on your 'audience'; a Christian will of course have various explanations / apologetics for these claims. But for others it might be fun.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that he did do a couple of things that were considered unlawful/wrong, but when put on the spot about it, he basically said "Hey, I'm the Son of Man don't you know, and the Son of Man can do whatever he wants, being the Son of Man and all". To which a Christian would say "Yup, he was right on the money there!".

If I can be bothered, I might look it up again - it's been a while.

Some of those rules, of course, would seem weird to modern people (and even to some contemporaries of his!), but on the other hand, his explanation for why it's okay for him to violate them (without making it ok for others) kind of falls short of being a good thing per se - it mostly seems like a wankerish way of saying that he's superior. The one thing he cancels for everyone - the laws of purity regarding foods - makes people less likely to wash their hands before eating. (Also, with the local vegetation, pigs were a bigger burden for the ecosystem than cows, goats, sheep, etc.)

He could've done as Philo instead and just refused the authority of the rabbinic courts - Philo never was flogged, because he didn't recognize their authority, Josephus was because he accepted it.(OTOH, dunno if this was applicable in Israel - there's a chance there was enough social pressure to conform to the rabbinic legal system, or the royal court or whatever.) Such a stunt would've been better - not recognizing the authority of a court that upholds rules he doesn't consider valid. This way, he pretty much says the courts are valid, but he is exceptionally outside of their jurisdiction.

Yeah, I was thinking of Mark 2:23-28, in which his disciples and him walked through a grainfield on the sabbath and took (stole?) grain to eat, and were called on it by the pharisees.

I've seen an explanation for what he answers there, in which it is said that what he actually said, was that 'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So man is lord even of the Sabbath.', in other words not 'Son of Man', but simply 'man(kind)'.

-Which initially and superficially makes it seem like a nicer thing to say. But to me, it just makes the passage even more strange:

I doubt the man mentioned in Numbers 15:32, out gathering sticks on the Sabbath (to make a fire in order to cook food, I presume), would have had much luck telling 'the children of Israel': "Hey guys - the Sabbath was made for us, not us for the Sabbath; I should be able to do this 'cause I really need to!".

No - God (who is Jesus, remember?), through his hotline Moses told them they had to stone the man to death.

So what was Jesus saying? Either "I'm (the son of) God, so I can bypass the rules", or "My rules are not that strict; they were meant for you", in which case he changed his mind since OT times.

pelfdaddy wrote:He died for the sins of assholes.

Not really!!! It was Jesus who was an ASSHOLE. He told people that he would be be killed and resurrect on the THIRD day.

Only an ASSHOLE would say he would resurrect on the THIRD day after he died. He just had to say he would resurrect.

On the THIRD DAY after he was dead, his disciple PROVED he was an ASSHOLE.

Within 72 hours, Jesus was a KNOWN ASSHOLE.

Jesus made his Momma cry....

Hi all just joined - I am from the UK!

I am actually wondering what Jesus did that was good?

He indeed was a false prophet, he was a liar and he was a sinner like the rest of us! He broke the law and encouraged others to do so - he was violent, cruel and vicious to the people in authority over him .....he was as mentioned a home wrecker and was an rebellious insubordinate and frankly a deluded fool. He was no more deity then we are! And he certainly was not the promised Jewish Messiah!

One thing that has not been mentioned (I don't think) is that his reply to this: Luke 19:27 But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me.

I find quite incomprehensible ...

Welcome!

cliopatra wrote:Hi all just joined - I am from the UK!

I am actually wondering what Jesus did that was good?

He indeed was a false prophet, he was a liar and he was a sinner like the rest of us! He broke the law and encouraged others to do so - he was violent, cruel and vicious to the people in authority over him .....he was as mentioned a home wrecker and was an rebellious insubordinate and frankly a deluded fool. He was no more deity then we are! And he certainly was not the promised Jewish Messiah!

One thing that has not been mentioned (I don't think) is that his reply to this: Luke 19:27 But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me.

I find quite incomprehensible ...

Although it is a thing he does say according to the text, he says it as part of a parable. It's the king in the parable that orders such an execution. (But this sometimes-used apologetic defense isn't entirely accurate either, because he makes it quite clear that he is (like) that king. How far he meant the analogy goes is probably not even decidable. )

Jesus was definitely not nice to a herd of pigs-

Matt ch 8 - DEMONS IN MAN - "Leave us alone!"
JESUS - "On yer bikes, get into them pigs!"
(pigs go bananas and charge over cliff)
FARMER - "Hey! what you done to me pigs?"
JESUS (to Peter) - "Come on mate let's do a runner!"
FARMER - "That's it run off yer bleddy yob, I know where you live! I'll tell your mam about you"..
(Later at home) - MARY - "What you bin doing today?"
JESUS - "Nowt"
MARY - "I heard you done summat to some pigs"..
JESUS - "You heard wrong"
(Police arrive) SERGEANT - "Jesus of Nazareth alias the Messiah, the Christ and the Son of God, I have a warrant for your arrest on charges of animal cruelty, you have the right to remain silent"..
JESUS - "It weren't me, Peter done it!"
SERGEANT - "Wrong sunshine, we've got witnesses"..
JESUS - "Who grassed me up? I bet it was Judas!"

cliopatra wrote:I am actually wondering what Jesus did that was good?......
One thing that has not been mentioned (I don't think) is that his reply to this: Luke 19:27 But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me. ...

Steady on, he never said that! Where did you get it from?
And in fairness to him, he did some good stuff like when he tore into the snooty priests-

"You're full of shite!"


Look, i'm not making it up- Jesus said- "The prostitutes are entering God's kingdom ahead of you, you think you look good in your fancy robes but inside you're full of filth and corruption!" (Matt 21:32/Matt 23:27)

Waymarker wrote:

cliopatra wrote:I am actually wondering what Jesus did that was good?......
One thing that has not been mentioned (I don't think) is that his reply to this: Luke 19:27 But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me. ...

Steady on, he never said that! Where did you get it from?
And in fairness to him, he did some good stuff like when he tore into the snooty priests-

"You're full of shite!"


Look, i'm not making it up- Jesus said- "The prostitutes are entering God's kingdom ahead of you, you think you look good in your fancy robes but inside you're full of filth and corruption!" (Matt 21:32/Matt 23:27)

Cliopatra got it from Luke 19:27, as stated above:

27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be their king, bring them here and slaughter them in front of me!’”

Regina wrote:Cliopatra got it from Luke 19:27

Ah now i see where Clio misunderstood! Jesus was telling the Parable of the Ten Coins about a king who went ballistic and ordered people to be killed.
It wasn't Jesus himself who was saying "kill my enemies", it was the king in the story..

Waymarker wrote:
Steady on, he never said that! Where did you get it from?
And in fairness to him, he did some good stuff like when he tore into the snooty priests-

How good an act this was is kind of difficult to objectively measure, as the modern idea of what the priests and the Pharisees taught and did has been quite distorted by Christian tradition.

@Waymarker: Yep, he just added it for dramatic effect. Nothing to do with him.

Waymarker wrote:

Regina wrote:Cliopatra got it from Luke 19:27

Ah now i see where Clio misunderstood! Jesus was telling the Parable of the Ten Coins about a king who went ballistic and ordered people to be killed.
It wasn't Jesus himself who was saying "kill my enemies", it was the king in the story..

Of course, it's a parable explaining something about the Kingdom of Heaven, of which he will be the King, so...

Zwaarddijk wrote:...And he [Jesus] ultimately weakens the situation of those for whom the safeguard fails in the first place, and weakens the situation of any woman that has committed adultery - there's no forgiveness in this ruling.

Huh? When the fundy mob wanted to kill an adulteress under the old laws he stepped in to rescue her, thereby blowing the old laws out of the water and sending out the message that she was as forgiveable as anybody else-