Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#21  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 04, 2014 11:50 am

Weaver wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Weaver wrote:The OP's premise is flawed.

Just because a large number believe in Satan doesn't mean that creationism - which has nothing to do with a mythical devil - should be taught.


To discredit Satan creationism and the bible as well as all religions, the more education about them we can pour into our children the better it is.

The secular adult world is better educated in religion than the religious world and that indicates a secular interest in religious studies. If secular parents want to know and teach themselves religious studies, it follows that they would not mind starting their secular interest in religion earlier for their children. They would vote for a more intelligent level of religious education. It would improve on what is being taught to religious children today.

It is also the duty of the secular world to insure that it's future members are not as deluded by superstitious belief as their parents. The tipping point of belief is fast approaching and duty says that we should facilitate change.

Is a good knowledge base a good defence against superstition?
Yes it is.

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DL

Lovely - but says nothing at all about my critique of your original post.

While I think it is true that education will help reduce belief in religion, in various details such as belief in Satan, creationism, gods, angels, and the veracity of various "holy" books, the fact remains that you originally stated that because a large number of people believe in Satan, therefore creationism should be taught in schools.

It is possible to believe in Satan and not believe in creationism - therefore teaching creationism will do nothing to disabuse people of a belief in Satan.

To say nothing of the fact that simply teaching creationism - as opposed to teaching why creationism is wrong - won't do anything to cause people to not believe in it. Indeed, it will likely have the opposite effect in most children, who by definition do not generally have strong critical thinking skills.


Their critical thinking skills will be improved as they compare all the various creation myths and move closer to believing that all religions are on the same mythical leg.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#22  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 04, 2014 12:03 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Willie71 wrote:-
It's nice to see someone else hold the view that education is about socializing to the intended workforce. I have tried to discuss this with several people, and they thought I was a conspiracy theorist. Looking back over the past hundred years, the classroom structure, level of authority present, and social norms have mirrored changes in the workplace.

I have no problem with a certain level of socialisation or preparation for the workforce, but often it is overdone. The dispute is mainly what values to teach, and these have often been based on religion and culture and not thought about properly. But there are too many vested interests. What should be pushed is education as a public good. Neither profit or religion should play any part in this. Children [and adults] have access to religious matters in their community, where they can seek it in mosques, temples, churches, etc. There is no need to "double-up" by providing religious instruction, and particularly worship, in schools.


No one said anything about worship in school.

I noted in your list of where religion would pop up in various classes that you did not mention history.

I think it would be good for the young to learn about the Dark Ages ushered in by Christianity, as well as the Inquisition.

You seem concerned with the work force but not with children learning all kinds of idiocies at home or church that will not get discussed where all that information can be put in context beside other religious nonsense.

Do you want a bunch of brain dead literalist right wing nut jobs running around your neighborhood?
Do you not want enlightened people about?

As you can see, we are not getting them with the status quo.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#23  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 04, 2014 12:12 pm

RealityRules wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Thorham wrote:What they should teach in schools is that religion in is bullshit.
If taught beside evolution, the students will recognize that.
Weaver wrote:This is certainly true, but not I think relevant to why creationism should not be taught - children need a certain grounding in facts before they have enough information to become skeptics, and muddying the waters with incorrect bullshit simply makes the transition even harder, because they do not know where to start rejecting nonsense.

It depends on the religious background of the kids, the school environment they're in, and their ages.

They probably need to be 13 or 14+ before they can compare evolution to creationism.

A secular education in science & biology until then is desirable.

Greatest I am wrote:The secular adult world is better educated in religion than the religious world and that indicates a secular interest in religious studies ...

It is also the duty of the secular world to insure that it's future members are not as deluded by superstitious belief as their parents. The tipping point of belief is fast approaching and duty says that we should facilitate change.

Is a good knowledge base a good defence against superstition?

In the "first world" secular sound education is having an effect: religious fundamentalism is diminishing, at least in the Christian communities.



I disagree with your age limit and think that the sooner we can start directing their thinking away fro the supernatural the better. By 13 their indoctrination and brain washing is basically set.

Please meet Princess Alice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZFusjCRdyA

Further. Do you have a reference for your?

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#24  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 04, 2014 12:21 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Thorham wrote:What they should teach in schools is that religion in is bullshit.
If taught beside evolution, the students will recognize that.
Weaver wrote:This is certainly true, but not I think relevant to why creationism should not be taught - children need a certain grounding in facts before they have enough information to become skeptics, and muddying the waters with incorrect bullshit simply makes the transition even harder, because they do not know where to start rejecting nonsense.

It depends on the religious background of the kids, the school environment they're in, and their ages.

They probably need to be 13 or 14+ before they can compare evolution to creationism.

A secular education in science & biology until then is desirable.


Greatest I am wrote:The secular adult world is better educated in religion than the religious world and that indicates a secular interest in religious studies ...

It is also the duty of the secular world to insure that it's future members are not as deluded by superstitious belief as their parents. The tipping point of belief is fast approaching and duty says that we should facilitate change.

Is a good knowledge base a good defence against superstition?

In the "first world" secular sound education is having an effect: religious fundamentalism is diminishing, at least in the Christian communities.


I am a fucking education fascist. No religion or creationism should be taught in government, or even religious schools, unless students are clearly instructed on how irrational and evidence-free such bullshit is. In child rape for example, the child is deemed not competent to make an informed decision, and so even if they give 'consent", it is still statutory rape. The same rule should apply with people who try to fuck with their minds. Why is the rape of the child's mind allowed? Is a child's mind LESS important than its body? For fucks sake! :doh:
If all this religious shit is self-evidently fucking true, then warning children and pointing out the complete lack of evidence for religious bullshit and ideology will help them make an informed decision. So until someone is eighteen, keep the kiddy-fucking priests the fuck out of their minds and genitalia. :evilgrin:

In other words, no religion or related matters, unless the child has total freedom to say Allah is a cunt, Jesus a myth, or any other fucking thing they want to see about about religion, including mocking and "blasphemy". Until that happens, there will be no education, just imprisonment of minds. They can do what the fuck they like when they are eighteen. And if religious schools don't toe the line, deegister those "schools" and remove the children. The time for trafficking and slavery of a child's mind is over. And if you don't agree you can all fuck off. :grin:


I agree with your view of protecting the minds of children. That is why I wrote the O.P.

That protection can only come with education as I stated. Education in school to help negate the improper education that they will get in the home, church or mosque.

You are throwing the kits to the wolves instead of saving them by denying them a better and all encumpasing religious education.

For-warned is for-armed.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#25  Postby Weaver » Dec 04, 2014 4:17 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Weaver wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Weaver wrote:The OP's premise is flawed.

Just because a large number believe in Satan doesn't mean that creationism - which has nothing to do with a mythical devil - should be taught.


To discredit Satan creationism and the bible as well as all religions, the more education about them we can pour into our children the better it is.

The secular adult world is better educated in religion than the religious world and that indicates a secular interest in religious studies. If secular parents want to know and teach themselves religious studies, it follows that they would not mind starting their secular interest in religion earlier for their children. They would vote for a more intelligent level of religious education. It would improve on what is being taught to religious children today.

It is also the duty of the secular world to insure that it's future members are not as deluded by superstitious belief as their parents. The tipping point of belief is fast approaching and duty says that we should facilitate change.

Is a good knowledge base a good defence against superstition?
Yes it is.

Regards
DL

Lovely - but says nothing at all about my critique of your original post.

While I think it is true that education will help reduce belief in religion, in various details such as belief in Satan, creationism, gods, angels, and the veracity of various "holy" books, the fact remains that you originally stated that because a large number of people believe in Satan, therefore creationism should be taught in schools.

It is possible to believe in Satan and not believe in creationism - therefore teaching creationism will do nothing to disabuse people of a belief in Satan.

To say nothing of the fact that simply teaching creationism - as opposed to teaching why creationism is wrong - won't do anything to cause people to not believe in it. Indeed, it will likely have the opposite effect in most children, who by definition do not generally have strong critical thinking skills.


Their critical thinking skills will be improved as they compare all the various creation myths and move closer to believing that all religions are on the same mythical leg.

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DL

Again, lovely but irrelevant - because you did not propose teaching comparative religion, you proposed teaching CREATIONISM as if fact then letting the kids decide it's bullshit.

You seem to be very dedicated to finding an excuse to teach religion in schools.
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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#26  Postby purplerat » Dec 04, 2014 8:51 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Thorham wrote:What they should teach in schools is that religion in bullshit.


If taught beside evolution, the students will recognize that.

Why would religion be taught alongside evolution? They are not even remotely the same subject. I don't have a problem with teaching about religion but it should be taught in the appropriate courses, not shoehorned into other subjects like science. The problem is (at least here in the US) that once you start teaching religion for what it is the religious get pissed off and demand it not be taught at all.
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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#27  Postby pcCoder » Dec 05, 2014 4:41 am

Don't schools already do this? I remember some RE in my high school history classes. And, even in the US, they were pretty objective in the material, not attempting to present any one or the other as correct or incorrect. But I graduated in 2001, and have no clue what may have changed since then.
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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#28  Postby purplerat » Dec 05, 2014 5:55 am

Well there's a difference between teaching about world religions versus teaching religion as part of other subjects such as science.
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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#29  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 05, 2014 4:54 pm

Weaver wrote:[q

You seem to be very dedicated to finding an excuse to teach religion in schools.


Yes. By comparing them, we discredit them.

You seem dedicated on keeping children ignorant and at the mercy of religions that will teach intolerance instead of tolerance.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#30  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 05, 2014 4:58 pm

purplerat wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Thorham wrote:What they should teach in schools is that religion in bullshit.


If taught beside evolution, the students will recognize that.

Why would religion be taught alongside evolution? They are not even remotely the same subject. I don't have a problem with teaching about religion but it should be taught in the appropriate courses, not shoehorned into other subjects like science. The problem is (at least here in the US) that once you start teaching religion for what it is the religious get pissed off and demand it not be taught at all.


Perhaps. And that conversation will benefit the side against superstition and the supernatural just as the I.D. debate did.

I did not suggest that we shoehorn religion into the science class. I suggested we shoehorn evolution into the religious class.
That is a big difference. I recognize the wording that led to your conclusion but the O.P. is quite clear.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#31  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 05, 2014 5:05 pm

pcCoder wrote:Don't schools already do this? I remember some RE in my high school history classes. And, even in the US, they were pretty objective in the material, not attempting to present any one or the other as correct or incorrect. But I graduated in 2001, and have no clue what may have changed since then.


Some schools do yes.

Mostly as you say in high schools. The thing is that by then many children have already been forced to believe in the supernatural and it is too late to teach them how to think properly.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#32  Postby Weaver » Dec 05, 2014 5:09 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Weaver wrote:[q

You seem to be very dedicated to finding an excuse to teach religion in schools.


Yes. By comparing them, we discredit them.

You seem dedicated on keeping children ignorant and at the mercy of religions that will teach intolerance instead of tolerance.

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DL

How do you draw that conclusion? I am fully for teaching comparative religion at an appropriate age, to show kids what stupid fairy tales ALL religions are - but teaching creationism, by definition an alternative to science, doesn't do that, it simply fills their heads with bullshit.
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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#33  Postby purplerat » Dec 05, 2014 5:14 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Thorham wrote:What they should teach in schools is that religion in bullshit.


If taught beside evolution, the students will recognize that.

Why would religion be taught alongside evolution? They are not even remotely the same subject. I don't have a problem with teaching about religion but it should be taught in the appropriate courses, not shoehorned into other subjects like science. The problem is (at least here in the US) that once you start teaching religion for what it is the religious get pissed off and demand it not be taught at all.


Perhaps. And that conversation will benefit the side against superstition and the supernatural just as the I.D. debate did.

I did not suggest that we shoehorn religion into the science class. I suggested we shoehorn evolution into the religious class.
That is a big difference. I recognize the wording that led to your conclusion but the O.P. is quite clear.

Regards
DL

The conversation will benefit which ever side the person driving the conversation wants it to. "teaching" evolution in a religion class there's little to stop the teacher from slanting the conversation towards religion over evolution. It would be simple to do because it's not in fact a science class so why would a teacher have to meet science criteria?

Why not rather teach science in the science class and religion in the religion class. Do you think students are too stupid to learn what the learn in one class then apply it to another?
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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#34  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 06, 2014 1:36 am

Weaver wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Weaver wrote:[q

You seem to be very dedicated to finding an excuse to teach religion in schools.


Yes. By comparing them, we discredit them.

You seem dedicated on keeping children ignorant and at the mercy of religions that will teach intolerance instead of tolerance.

Regards
DL

How do you draw that conclusion? I am fully for teaching comparative religion at an appropriate age, to show kids what stupid fairy tales ALL religions are - but teaching creationism, by definition an alternative to science, doesn't do that, it simply fills their heads with bullshit.


Creation is a part of religions and you somehow think taking it out would not compromise the teaching or comparative religion that you endorse. The religious are using creationism against evolution as we speak and to take it out of religious studies would give the religious more ammunition to use against us as they would say we are trying to hide something.

You are either for or against Comparative religion studies. To be in except for the creation part will not cut it. It is the main culprit in teaching kids the supernatural beliefs that we want to discourage.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#35  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 06, 2014 1:45 am

purplerat wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:

If taught beside evolution, the students will recognize that.

Why would religion be taught alongside evolution? They are not even remotely the same subject. I don't have a problem with teaching about religion but it should be taught in the appropriate courses, not shoehorned into other subjects like science. The problem is (at least here in the US) that once you start teaching religion for what it is the religious get pissed off and demand it not be taught at all.


Perhaps. And that conversation will benefit the side against superstition and the supernatural just as the I.D. debate did.

I did not suggest that we shoehorn religion into the science class. I suggested we shoehorn evolution into the religious class.
That is a big difference. I recognize the wording that led to your conclusion but the O.P. is quite clear.

Regards
DL

The conversation will benefit which ever side the person driving the conversation wants it to. "teaching" evolution in a religion class there's little to stop the teacher from slanting the conversation towards religion over evolution. It would be simple to do because it's not in fact a science class so why would a teacher have to meet science criteria?

Why not rather teach science in the science class and religion in the religion class. Do you think students are too stupid to learn what the learn in one class then apply it to another?


I do not think your scenario of slanting towards religion would happen because the teachers would have a curriculum to follow although I am sure some teachers will try it. Hopefully they will be weeded out over time.

As a second best, I agree with you on teaching science in the science class and religion in the religion class. I think kids are smart enough to use evolution against creationism and that is why I recommend what I do. Evolution ideas against talking donkeys and snakes seems to belong in religion class.

I want the discussion to start and end in religious studies so as to not introduce the supernatural anywhere else in the school and especially in the science class.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#36  Postby purplerat » Dec 06, 2014 3:06 am

Evolution is a scientific theory. Not an anti-religion propaganda tool. I don't see how you have a curriculum such as you propose without turning it into that.

Strictly trying to use scientific principles to defeat religious beliefs in a class setting would be a complete waste of time because there are so many diverse beliefs many of which do conform or at least try to fit in with accepted science. So while you're teaching some part of the curriculum that defeats some religious belief some other kid in the class is sitting their smugly think "ha, see science agrees with my religion!" and is having his beliefs reinforced.
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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#37  Postby Weaver » Dec 06, 2014 11:21 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Weaver wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Weaver wrote:[q

You seem to be very dedicated to finding an excuse to teach religion in schools.


Yes. By comparing them, we discredit them.

You seem dedicated on keeping children ignorant and at the mercy of religions that will teach intolerance instead of tolerance.

Regards
DL

How do you draw that conclusion? I am fully for teaching comparative religion at an appropriate age, to show kids what stupid fairy tales ALL religions are - but teaching creationism, by definition an alternative to science, doesn't do that, it simply fills their heads with bullshit.


Creation is a part of religions and you somehow think taking it out would not compromise the teaching or comparative religion that you endorse. The religious are using creationism against evolution as we speak and to take it out of religious studies would give the religious more ammunition to use against us as they would say we are trying to hide something.

You are either for or against Comparative religion studies. To be in except for the creation part will not cut it. It is the main culprit in teaching kids the supernatural beliefs that we want to discourage.

Regards
DL

I will try one more time, then I'm done if you don't get it.

I have no problems teaching the creation myths of religions in comparative religion classes.

However, creationISM is a substitute for various scientific explainations for the origin of the universe and the origin and evolution of life. That is by definition a counter to material taught in science classes - so the only to teach it comparatively is to present it in science class - and THAT is what I object to.

Teach comparative religions, and compare and contrast all their elements including creation myths. But leave science alone to teach science.
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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#38  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 07, 2014 4:30 pm

purplerat wrote:Evolution is a scientific theory. Not an anti-religion propaganda tool. I don't see how you have a curriculum such as you propose without turning it into that.

Strictly trying to use scientific principles to defeat religious beliefs in a class setting would be a complete waste of time because there are so many diverse beliefs many of which do conform or at least try to fit in with accepted science. So while you're teaching some part of the curriculum that defeats some religious belief some other kid in the class is sitting their smugly think "ha, see science agrees with my religion!" and is having his beliefs reinforced.


I agree with your first.

That would not happen in a class on religious studies but when it happens outside of that setting, then we will have done our duty in helping children think better and without a foolish belief ion the supernatural.

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Re: Billion + believe in Satan. Should all schools be mandated t

#39  Postby Greatest I am » Dec 07, 2014 4:33 pm

Weaver wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Weaver wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:

Yes. By comparing them, we discredit them.

You seem dedicated on keeping children ignorant and at the mercy of religions that will teach intolerance instead of tolerance.

Regards
DL

How do you draw that conclusion? I am fully for teaching comparative religion at an appropriate age, to show kids what stupid fairy tales ALL religions are - but teaching creationism, by definition an alternative to science, doesn't do that, it simply fills their heads with bullshit.


Creation is a part of religions and you somehow think taking it out would not compromise the teaching or comparative religion that you endorse. The religious are using creationism against evolution as we speak and to take it out of religious studies would give the religious more ammunition to use against us as they would say we are trying to hide something.

You are either for or against Comparative religion studies. To be in except for the creation part will not cut it. It is the main culprit in teaching kids the supernatural beliefs that we want to discourage.

Regards
DL

I will try one more time, then I'm done if you don't get it.

I have no problems teaching the creation myths of religions in comparative religion classes.

However, creationISM is a substitute for various scientific explainations for the origin of the universe and the origin and evolution of life. That is by definition a counter to material taught in science classes - so the only to teach it comparatively is to present it in science class - and THAT is what I object to.

Teach comparative religions, and compare and contrast all their elements including creation myths. But leave science alone to teach science.


We have no argument as I said nothing of having anything religious in a science class.

Who are you arguing with? Not me.

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