Christ it ain't easy

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Christ it ain't easy

#1  Postby Clive Durdle » Nov 12, 2017 11:08 am

Been reading about framing and not thinking about elephants :-)

I was brung up Pentecostal and therefore heard very regular sermons on Acts, which contains a very interesting verse about holding everything in common.

I wonder if there were three interconnected things going on that have got completely confused with one strand winning.

A political strand around equality and justice. It isn't clear if teachings were taught by someone, or if someone used a character as a teaching method. This is in a Jewish and Greek tradition - priesthhood of all believers, lion laying down with the lamb, let my people go.

A priestly tradition, from Iran and Egypt, of holiness, hierarchy, rules. If you farted at a dinner in Persia you were expected to go out and commit suicide.

A mixing of these two in various strengths and biases.

I think we can therefore quite easily construct ecosystems of christianities, using the equivalents of "proofs" as used in alcohol, another form of spirit :-)
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Christ it ain't easy

#2  Postby Leucius Charinus » Nov 12, 2017 11:04 pm

Of all the forms of "spirit" available to the literary school that fabricated the NT perhaps the greatest in circulation was the Platonic and Stoic conception of the "Guardian Spirit". For example consider this description by Epictetus, which even has in it the idea that prayer should be in private ...

    "Nevertheless he has placed by every man a guardian,
    every man's Daimon, to whom he has committed the care of the man,
    a guardian who never sleeps, is never deceived.

    For to what better and more careful guardian could He have entrusted each of us?
    When, then, you have shut the doors and made darkness within,
    remember never to say that you are alone, for you are not;
    but God is within, and your Daimon is within, and what need
    have they of light to see what you are doing?

    To this God you ought to swear an oath just as the soldiers do to Caesar
    .

Or this by Seneca, with whom Paul falsely exchanged correspondence, whom many suspected of being a Christian, and whom Jerome counted among the "Illustrious men":

    "God is near you, he is with you, he is within you.
    This is what I mean, Lucilius:
    a holy spirit indwells within us,
    one who marks our good and bad deeds,
    and is our guardian.

    As we treat this spirit, so are we treated by it.
    Indeed, no man can be good without the help of God.
    Can one rise superior to fortune unless God helps him to rise?
    "

    ~ Seneca, Epistle 41.

The authors of the NT ensured that the following Christians capitalised on the Stoic conception of "daimon" [guardian spirit] by claiming Jesus issued a brand new corporate version of "Divine Spirit" and suddenly people were no longer responsible for themselves, or for their actions.

As Emperor Julian wrote, Jesus Christ was therefore able to say to all people the following:

    "He that is a seducer, he that is a murderer,
    he that is sacrilegious and infamous,
    let him approach without fear!
    For with this water will I wash him
    and will straightway make him clean.

    And though he should be guilty
    of those same sins a second time,
    let him but smite his breast and beat his head
    and I will make him clean again.
    "
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Christ it ain't easy

#3  Postby Clive Durdle » Nov 13, 2017 10:20 am

Philip Pullman :-)

Sagan commented that we might be at the stars if we had developed what was around. Maybe we have also been in a moral dark ages of a magisterium that we have not yet struggled from.
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Re: Christ it ain't easy

#4  Postby Clive Durdle » Nov 13, 2017 10:24 am

Is the New Testament an impressive political compilation to reframe our thinking from where Seneca et al had got to and were going? Nazarenus is a glimmer into the world that was eventually turned upside down
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Re: Christ it ain't easy

#5  Postby Clive Durdle » Nov 13, 2017 10:27 am

Emmanuel, God with us
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Christ it ain't easy

#6  Postby Leucius Charinus » Nov 15, 2017 11:22 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:Philip Pullman :-)

Sagan commented that we might be at the stars if we had developed what was around.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Maybe we have also been in a moral dark ages of a magisterium that we have not yet struggled from.


A Nicene narcotic? An education system which until recently had as its apex a "Doctor of Theology"?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Christ it ain't easy

#7  Postby Leucius Charinus » Nov 15, 2017 11:29 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:Is the New Testament an impressive political compilation to reframe our thinking from where Seneca et al had got to and were going?



According to Bruno Bauer,

    the writer of Mark's gospel was "an Italian, at home both in Rome and Alexandria";
    that of Matthew's gospel "a Roman, nourished by the spirit of Seneca";
    Christianity is essentially "Stoicism triumphant in a Jewish garb."


Nazarenus is a glimmer into the world that was eventually turned upside down


The world of the pagans was turned on its head.

Epigrams of Palladas:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/a ... lladas.htm

    O, the great wickedness of envy! A certain person hates the fortunate man whom God loves. Thus we are irrationally deceived by envy, and thus we are readily enslaved to folly. We Hellenes are men reduced to ashes, holding to our buried hopes in the dead; for everything has now been turned on its head. (AP 10.90)

    Surely we are dead and only seem to live, we Hellenes, having fallen into misfortune, pretending that a dream is in fact a way of life. Or are we alive while our way of life is dead? (AP 10.82)
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Leucius Charinus
 
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