Christian Archeology

Archeology

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Christian Archeology

#1  Postby duvduv » Oct 17, 2016 8:24 pm

With regard to publications such as Biblical Archaeology Review I am struck by the fact that they never present a definitive case for archaeological evidence of 1st or even 2nd century Christianity in ancient Palestine, and no one challenges them on it. People simply pontificate about "where Jesus walked" or "where Paul had his vision" etc. It's incredible.
Where is evidence of Christian communities in that country?
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Re: Christian Archeology

#2  Postby duvduv » Oct 20, 2016 11:46 pm

I was just reading an interesting article about the Galilee. The article attempts at recreating the supposed world of the NT Jesus. But not a single time does it attempt to identify a SINGLE archeological site corroborating anything in the New Testament texts. Not in Tiberias, not in Sephoris, not in Bethsaida, not in Nazareth, not in Capernaum, not anywhere around the Sea of Galilee. All it does is try to reconstruct the stories in the NT with allusions brought from scenery in the area.

Doesn't it bother anyone that this is what is going on?? Furthermore, doesn't it tell you that the the Josephus story arc gets injected into NT texts simply because the same Roman authors who were developing the new religion in the 4th century also created the world described in their book by one Josephus, who just coincidentally has a name similar to EUSEBIUS?! If this is a wrong view, then HOW LONG is it going to take for archeologists to come with something definitive besides the hoopla associated with that silly little box that is associated with the Hebrew name of the brother of the NT Jesus figure discovered in Jerusalem.

Scholars are happy with references to finds from "Jesus's time." But are unfazed that nothing in the Galilee has been found associated with this new religion that allegedly emerged in the first century. They are also too excited about the discovery of a synagogue in Capernaum "where Jesus probably preached." They call this kind of work scholarly and scientific? Especially since it is admitted that they are not SURE it was a synagogue or even a public building! In any event guesses are that the "Peter house" was from the 4th or 5th century.

T
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Re: Christian Archeology

#3  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 25, 2016 3:31 am

    "The real founders of the science of early Christian archaeology came in the 19th century:
    Giuseppe Marchi (1795-1860) and Giovanni de Rossi (1822-1894)...[the latter] published
    between 1857 and 1861 the first volume of "Inscriptiones christianae urbis Romae". Pope
    Pius IX moved beyond collecting by appointing in 1852 a commission - "Commissione de
    archaelogia sacra" - that would be responsible for all early Christian remains."


    Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church life before Constantine
    Graydon F. Snyder


Christian archaeology was kicked off by the utterly corrupt church organisation of the 19th century.

The first volume of Inscriptiones christianae urbis Romae" included forgeries by de Rossi.

It's a high-end side show. Typical Vatican turnstile material. Operative since Damasus in the 4th century.

The nation of Christians was interpolated into Josephus in the 4th century.

None of the evidence for Christians or their nation becomes compelling before the 4th century.

The entire field - Christian Archeology - is riddled with [Eusebian] confirmation bias.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Christian Archeology

#4  Postby duvduv » Oct 25, 2016 3:46 am

All the popular Christian archaeology can offer is:
"This is possibly where Jesus walked."
" This could be the site of the crucifixion."
" This ossuary is where James was possibly buried."
"Here is where Paul may have been blinded."

It's so utterly pathetic. There is no first century Christian archaeology....
They could at least try something like "Here is where the Christians of Corinth read the letters of Paul," or "this inscription seems to corroborate that Peter was a fisherman."
But they can't and never will have any archaeological facts because no Jesus, Paul or Peter existed in the first century. Period.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#5  Postby scott1328 » Oct 25, 2016 5:50 pm

There is no Christian Archaeology. There is only archaeology (mis)used in service to Christian Apologetics.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#6  Postby Alan B » Oct 25, 2016 6:09 pm

Yep. The ID and YEC crowd do the same. Use a 'sciency' word and, Bingo! Look, we're doing 'science'.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#7  Postby RealityRules » Oct 25, 2016 10:02 pm

Two temples to the Egyptian god Serapis in Asia Minor were turned into churches. At least one, the one in Permagon, was listed as one of the 'Seven Churches of Asia' (the other in Ephesus could well have been on of those seven churches, too).

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapeum# ... _in_Turkey (one might have to scroll up from where this link lands)

It makes one wonder if the gentiles Paul was engaging with reflects some of these scenarios.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#8  Postby igorfrankensteen » Oct 25, 2016 11:04 pm

Bias based archaeology has been around since the term archaeology was coined. It's no different than biased History, biased Science, biased psychology, and so on.

Every now and then, someone who sets out to prove their biases accurate, accidentally come up with relatively good archaeology, or at least the biased reports they make, end up being corrected by other less biased people later. Some of the efforts to prove that old Greek myths, for example, were actually based on real events, have paid off by leading to real discoveries of the actual past that resembled the stories.

But yes, of course if you look to a religion-based publication, you aren't likely to find a balanced scientific description of whatever research may have occurred.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#9  Postby duvduv » Oct 25, 2016 11:14 pm

I think the publications geared to the layman have the impossible task of appealing to an audience about what they hold dear while at the same time appearing to be academic and scientific!
They seek fame and relevance, the younger ones seek tenure. And amateur scholars are a threat. The whole system is corrupt.
And then there is a great man like Leucius Charnius all in his own league!
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Re: Christian Archeology

#10  Postby duvduv » Nov 20, 2016 11:29 pm

It's been one month and I still see no discussion regarding any alleged archeological findings related to anything in the New Testament. Anyone have any ideas?!
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Re: Christian Archeology

#11  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 21, 2016 12:16 am

One difficulty, especially in the first century, is identifying Christian communities as opposed to Judeo-Christian communities.
But yes, Christian apologists like those of other faiths, like to misrepresent if not outright fabricate archeological data.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#12  Postby duvduv » Nov 21, 2016 12:23 am

However, the truth is that there is NO archeological data on Christianity to falsify from the 1st century. That's because there was no Christianity in the first century in Judea, Rome or Greece. There isn't a scintilla of corroborative evidence for the existence of Paul or any Christian communities in Corinth, Ephesus, Rome or anywhere else. The whole thing was invented in the 4th century under Constantine and his successors thanks to the creative work attributable to someone they call Eusebius, whose name just happens to correlate with the name Josephus....
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Re: Christian Archeology

#13  Postby duvduv » Dec 13, 2016 7:22 pm

I have just finished watching a video of the Bible Archeology Society that purports to show data of where Jesus lived in the first century, especially the sites in the Galilee. But all the video does is discuss issues such as the James ossuary, the Galilee boat, a piece of a so-called crucified bone, and other things that are NOT ANY KIND of corroborating empirical evidence of any kind EVEN for the existence of Jesus and the other names of the New Testament. It is a clever attempt to leave up to the imagination of the viewer that the relics of archaeology point in the direction of sufficient evidence based on the assumptions of Church dogma. It is intellectually dishonest to present it with the odd disclaimer that nothing "proves" this or that, BUT........ "shows evidence of the world "where Jesus lived." Doing so without the slightest shred of evidence for the existence of ANY Christians or Jesus in the first or second centuries. Absolutely incredible.....
Let's give thought to the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE at all that NAZARETH existed in the first or second centuries altogether. Rene Salm has studied this very carefully. Here is a link that discusses it.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html
IF Nazareth did not exist, and is not mentioned in Josephus or ANY Jewish source, then that is basic proof that the NT stories were not written in the first or second centuries. End of story.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#14  Postby Leucius Charinus » Dec 15, 2016 6:50 am

duvduv wrote:It's been one month and I still see no discussion regarding any alleged archeological findings related to anything in the New Testament. Anyone have any ideas?!


There are no unambiguous archaeological relics prior to Helena finding the One True Cross and Nails in the 4th century, We are looking at the creation of the NT Bible as the creation of a brand new Nationalistic literature, following the models outlined in Plato. The new nationalistic literature was purposefully created in order to legitimitize the very new and strange "NATION OF CHRISTIANS" (this phrase is borrowed from Eusebius, the historian of the great "Nation of Christians".

Quite plainly for those who have actually looked through the archaeological evidence tendered by Christian academics in recent times, none of this evidence is unambiguous. The situation is that the great "Nation of Christians" do not appear to have left any archaeological footprints in the centuries prior to the appearance of the Nicene Church Organisation. It follows that it is historically quite possible that the Nicene Church Organsiation simply fabricated its own (pseudo) historical lineage.

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/A ... Review.htm
Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church life before Constantine -- by Graydon F. Snyder

A critical review & re-examination of the evidence presented in "Ante Pacem"

Conclusion:

totally unconvincing
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Christian Archeology

#15  Postby duvduv » Dec 15, 2016 8:04 am

I haven't read the article yet, but I imagine apologists want to first explain the case of missing Nazareth, and then explain why there is no evidence of Christian communities in Ephesus, Galatia, Thessalonika, etc. at the time the person called Paul supposedly existed. Not to mention all the Christian communities in Judea and Galilee.
Speaking of Galilee, it should be significant that the authors of the Gospels were so partial to settlements around the Sea of Galilee for the Jesus figure.....
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Re: Christian Archeology

#16  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 15, 2016 12:01 pm

Xtian archeology is like creationism. Decide what you need then go and look for something that will fit the bill.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#17  Postby Leucius Charinus » Dec 17, 2016 4:13 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Xtian archeology is like creationism. Decide what you need then go and look for something that will fit the bill.


Such was the confirmation bias of the Yale Divinity College team management when in the early 20th century they suddenly and unexpectedly found a mural of "Jesus healing the paralytic" on a wall in a house way out near the Persian border at Dura-Europos.

Image

Do I see Jesus? Ummm ..... Ummmm .....

Dear Jesus where are you and Wally?

I dont see Jesus...

Do you see Jesus?

Does anyone see Jesus?

I really and truly don't but ...


Its all academic because the Yale Divinity Perception Management Team Leaders have all agreed that THEY see Jesus in this mural and such an opinion has been published in peer-review "I see Jesus here and there" Biblical Journals all over the world.

So long as the Biblical Scholars insist that they see Jesus on this Dura-Europos wall mural, all this "Christian Archaeology" Mis-Information will continue to be promulgated by the entitled.

The Biblical Institutes and Theology Colleges, after all is said and done, represent business corporations in the Tertiary Education Sector. It made a great deal of sense to pack up the walls of this Dura dwelling into packing crates and ship them back to Yale for "restoration" and public display using turnstiles, after the Vatican Business Model.


Christian Archaeology is a high-profile circus act.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Christian Archeology

#18  Postby crank » Dec 17, 2016 4:50 am

It's really that bad, they just assert they see jesus without any kind of evidence to back up why what they see should be taken to be jesus? Any evidence, and any theories, etc, originating from true believers should be considered suspect, suspect enough to never be accepted without some pretty convincing corroborative support form non-believers. The gross biases that beliefs engender is so well established, this really shouldn't be controversial. I'm sure christian archeologists would think that about archeologists who were true believers in a different religion.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#19  Postby duvduv » Dec 19, 2016 11:00 pm

Leucius as usual hit the nail on the head.......the bottom line is BUSINESS. And of course the "scholars," popular magazines, etc. themselves are also businesses. A professor cannot afford to be ignored, lose tenure, have his writing forgotten, etc. It's all one big fakery.
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Re: Christian Archeology

#20  Postby RealityRules » Dec 20, 2016 9:45 am

duvduv wrote:
Let's give thought to the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE at all that NAZARETH existed in the first or second centuries altogether.

Rene Salm has studied this very carefully. Here is a link that discusses it: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html

IF Nazareth did not exist, and is not mentioned in Josephus, or any Jewish source, then that is basic proof that the NT stories were not written in the first or second centuries. End of story.

That jesusneverexisted page of Ken Humphrey's (which contains a lot of interesting information) refers to René Salm's 2007/8 book The Myth of Nazareth: The Invented Town of Jesus. Salm received quite a lot of flak over that book (eg. people attacking him without addressing points in the book), so he responded with yet another book addressing some of the points raised -

'NazarethGate: Quack Archeology, Holy Hoaxes, and the Invented Town of Jesus', 2015.

See 1. http://www.nazarethmyth.info/

and 2. Salm's responses to things Bart Ehrman said in a recent debate he had with Robert M Price:



On his mythicistpapers site, Salm also highlights a video (also available at http://www.nazarethmyth.info/) -

    http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2016/10/07/new-nazareth-video-october-2016/

    "This data-rich video presents a concise review of the Nazareth (non-)evidence for a town in the time of “Jesus.” The power-point format with 18 slides (beginning at minute 10) includes the bogus 2009 claim of a “house from the time of Jesus” (even with an astonishing invented wall); the forgery of the Caesarea Inscription mentioning Nazareth (universally considered authentic and often dated to the first century CE); the shockingly early dating of scores of tombs, pottery shards, and oil lamps; water worn (and completely unreadable) coins from Mary’s Well groundlessly attributed to Hellenistic times; and other remarkable material from both my Nazareth volumes. A must see, particularly for those who have not yet read my books. (1 hour)—R.S."
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