willhud9 wrote:

Sityl wrote:

willhud9 wrote:Another guy who was brought up on the idea that hell is a torture room.

I'm not sure what religion you were brought up in, but we had to read the sermon's of Saint Alphonsus Liguori, who was a doctor of the (Catholic) church, who routinely described it in just such a way.

The idea that hell is a massive torture room is an invention by the grown and established church. The Greek γέεννα does not suggest a place of punishment but rather a place of anguish. This would make sense in Christian circles since Hell would be eternal separation from God. But to imagine them being prodded by little devils or shackled to chains in this Dante's Inferno or even a Greek-like Tarterus is not supported by early Christian teachings. Yes the wicked go there, but so do those who may have been good people but rejected God's offer of salvation. You made a choice not to be with God, fine, you go to hell. In hell you are eternally separated from the Creator and Lord, and therefore are in anguish. Nothing more.

Of course, there's Jesus' parable which describes afterlife for sinners in a way that shows those not suffering to be rather gleeful about the situation, etc.
I am pretty sure the idea of Hell as punishment did occur before the "established church", it was quite likely one out of many competing ideas in the early church. As sin often was considered violation of law, it's quite obvious why hell as a punishment is a natural evolution as well.

Rom 6:23 might also be a rather early source for the idea that Hell is a punishment (more so than a natural state of absence of God)

Zwaarddijk wrote:Rom 6:23 might also be a rather early source for the idea that Hell is a punishment (more so than a natural state of absence of God)

SFAIK, Paul nowhere refers to Gehenna or eternal, conscious torment. (2 Thessalonians c.1 refers to everlasting destruction, but Pauline authorship's in doubt.) Paul refers to God's wrath and, as in Rom 6:23, death, but also clearly states that all Israel will be saved, and that God has hardened the hearts of all so that he may have mercy on all.

E.P. Sanders suggested that Paul was inconsistent: yes, Paul might've said, repentance is important, to avoid God's wrath; and yes, it's in God's nature to be merciful. I think Paul is inconsistent on points, but I'm not sure that this is one of them. There's nothing to say that God's wrath is incompatible with ultimate salvation. His wrath could be a purging element of the process of salvation. Terrible and to be avoided, but not eternal, or an end in itself.

Gehenna belongs to Jewish eschatology. (Which is why I prefer it to "hell," which carries mounds of later theological baggage.) There's elements of this in Paul, but his theology is weighted towards universalism, both in mission, and in reconciliation to God.

Byron wrote:

Gehenna belongs to Jewish eschatology. (Which is why I prefer it to "hell," which carries mounds of later theological baggage.) There's elements of this in Paul, but his theology is weighted towards universalism, both in mission, and in reconciliation to God.

I agree with you that Paul did not use the word gehenna in Bible.

Xtianity in a nutshell? Humanities fear of the unknown/death. Reason why most religions came about.