Another guy who was brought up on the idea that hell is a torture room.

willhud9 wrote:Another guy who was brought up on the idea that hell is a torture room.

I'm not sure what religion you were brought up in, but we had to read the sermon's of Saint Alphonsus Liguori, who was a doctor of the (Catholic) church, who routinely described it in just such a way.

Sityl wrote:

willhud9 wrote:Another guy who was brought up on the idea that hell is a torture room.

I'm not sure what religion you were brought up in, but we had to read the sermon's of Saint Alphonsus Liguori, who was a doctor of the (Catholic) church, who routinely described it in just such a way.

The idea that hell is a massive torture room is an invention by the grown and established church. The Greek γέεννα does not suggest a place of punishment but rather a place of anguish. This would make sense in Christian circles since Hell would be eternal separation from God. But to imagine them being prodded by little devils or shackled to chains in this Dante's Inferno or even a Greek-like Tarterus is not supported by early Christian teachings. Yes the wicked go there, but so do those who may have been good people but rejected God's offer of salvation. You made a choice not to be with God, fine, you go to hell. In hell you are eternally separated from the Creator and Lord, and therefore are in anguish. Nothing more.

Animavore wrote:Why would one be in anguish without god?

Oh wait, this is manipulation through fear. The mainstay of any good cult.

Well no. Theologically speaking God is supposed to be the epitome of Good and Completeness and Life. Now imagine for second if God does exist and you remain an nonbeliever until the day you pass away (May you live a long and prosperous life, just hypothetics here) and you go to hell. You are now with the knowledge that you will be separated from that epitome of Good and Completeness and Life. In other worlds you are in a realm of death and despair. Of course, this brings up the notion that one's heart could be hardened enough against God that it doesn't even matter if you went to hell because one wouldn't care.

Animavore wrote:I'm sorry but that just sounds like manipulating bollox. It sounds like there's a silent, "You wouldn't want that now, would you?" at the end to which the witless and worried believer to be says, "No. Where do I sign up?"

Well that's the point, but I don't think it's manipulative. From my experiance has an assoc. pastor most Christians when they evangelize dont want to see anyone separated from God because they view it as horrible.

Will, is there anything in Christian teaching that substantiates that idea of hell over others? I've heard loads of people from WLC to D’Souza to just about anyone grappling with theodicy bring it up.

Bribase wrote:Will, is there anything in Christian teaching that substantiates that idea of hell over others? I've heard loads of people from WLC to D’Souza to just about anyone grappling with theodicy bring it up.

Just Early church father teachings, New testament writings and Greek and an understanding of Judaic Sheol. Too many people the idea of a punishment place comes from the parable in Luke when Lazarus wanted to leave Hades to rejoin God, but God told him he had his chance to believe but chose his own fate. The church though for a long time has taught this eternal hell of suffering, methinks in part due to Pagan influence on the established church around the Collapse of the Roman Empire and also later on during the Renaissance the ideal of a conflicting nature of Good and Evil, Heaven and Hell, God and Satan became romanticized.

The gospels (synoptic) are explicit about the "Gehenna tou puros" (the hell of fire). Mk 9:43, Mt 5:22, 18:9. You could attribute this to early church tradition, not Jesus, but like Dale Allison, I see every reason to think this is an authentic theme, as Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet.

But then Paul, himself no stranger to God's judgment, starts preaching a hymn to universal reconciliation in Romans 9-11, where he describes the coming-in of the gentiles, and God's mercy to Israel. Romans 11:26 ("all Israel will be saved"), 11:32 ("for God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all"), and the climax in 11:36 ("for from him and through him and to him are all things").

So, as ever, the NT contains competing themes. It speaks of the Gehenna of fire. And universal incorporation of all into God. Take your pick.

DoctorE wrote:Former preacher Dan Barker summarizes the "good news" message of the bible in less than two minutes.

". . the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Many christians take this Jesus at his word that there will be a place of eternal torment, and they look forward to enjoying the spectacle from heaven.

Does it even matter what the 'original meaning' (whatever it may be) of the bible's teachings regarding hell are? The eternal torture story is what a lot of christians believe, probably more so in the baptist / evangelical groups.
It's the contemporary belief that matters, and that's what he makes fun of.

It's like a mugger:

"Good news! I won't stab you if you give me your wallet!"

willhud9 wrote:

Sityl wrote:

willhud9 wrote:Another guy who was brought up on the idea that hell is a torture room.

I'm not sure what religion you were brought up in, but we had to read the sermon's of Saint Alphonsus Liguori, who was a doctor of the (Catholic) church, who routinely described it in just such a way.

The idea that hell is a massive torture room is an invention by the grown and established church. The Greek γέεννα does not suggest a place of punishment but rather a place of anguish. This would make sense in Christian circles since Hell would be eternal separation from God. But to imagine them being prodded by little devils or shackled to chains in this Dante's Inferno or even a Greek-like Tarterus is not supported by early Christian teachings. Yes the wicked go there, but so do those who may have been good people but rejected God's offer of salvation. You made a choice not to be with God, fine, you go to hell. In hell you are eternally separated from the Creator and Lord, and therefore are in anguish. Nothing more.

Will, although I understand what you are saying, it seems that we are splitting hairs. A room of torture for all eternity sounds pretty bad, but so does eternal "anguish" as well. Whether it is really one or the other really does not matter too much as it is an eternal form of punishment that doesn't fit the crime. Let's say for a second that Dan was brought up with the "anguish" idea of Hell, would that make his argument any less valid or would he have not become an atheist?

Mus Ponticus wrote:And if we look in jewish literature, then the idea of a "massive torture room" (or eternal torture of the damned) was clearly widespread, for example in 1Enoch (where it talks about Gehenna!), and here's a gem from Judith 16.17:

Woe to the nations that rise up against my kindred! the Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them in the day of judgment, in putting fire and worms in their flesh; and they shall feel them, and weep for ever.

So when Jesus speaks about "eternal punishment" and "eternal fire" (or something to that effect), and the punishment being similar to being sent to a torture chamber or being beaten, I think it's clearly much more natral to think that the author is thinking about stuff like this, and not just "anguish".

Great example.

This is why I think Gehenna is an authentic Jesus theme: it slots into apocalyptic Jewish thought. Matthew 13's Parable of the Sowers (+ explanation) is one of the clearest explanations of Gehenna. Jesus finishes up by saying, "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (This last led to a comedy classic by Ian Paisley -- no really! A congregant interrupted the spittle-flecked pastor in full hellfire mode by shouting, "I haven't got any teeth!" Paisley snaps back, "Teeth will be provided!")

This goes against the earliest gentile Christianity, including the Romans 9-11 already noted, & 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul claims that "all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ," and describes God as "all in all."

So a tension between judgmental apocalypticism and universalism has been present in Christianity from the start. Hell, it's even there in the Jesus sayings and Paul. 1 Thessalonians is full-on doomsday preaching, with "God's wrath" overtaking those who oppose Paul; and Romans c.2 has Paul ranting of God visiting "wrath and fury" on "those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness," a few pages before Paul preaches universal reconciliation!

It's a tension that's never gone away, and will never go away. It can only be acknowledged, and sides chosen.