Christians aren’t being driven out of public life

they’re just losing their unfair advantages

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Christians aren’t being driven out of public life

#1  Postby Paul » Jan 17, 2014 1:37 pm

Piece in the New Statesman by Robin Ince (who was also made a few posts on RDF before it went tits up)

Cristina Odone confuses a loss of advantage with an act of oppression. This is the shock of those who are losing their divine right to dominate.

One of the prickly issues for a society that attempts to be liberal is how tolerant it must be of the intolerant. Writing in the last issue of this magazine, Cristina Odone says that she feels her rights as a taxpayer, a citizen and a Christian have been trampled on. She warns of a world around the corner in which religion will be a secret activity behind closed doors.

So, what is this dystopian vision of the future? A world where if you run a bed and breakfast, you cannot discriminate against gay couples, and you have to abide by the rules of the job you are contracted to do. That’s it, really.

(continues)
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UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#2  Postby Aca » Jan 17, 2014 7:41 pm

Two interesting articles in New Statesman

The new intolerance: will we regret pushing Christians out of public life?

In this provocative challenge to the left, the former New Statesman deputy editor Cristina Odone argues that liberalism has become the new orthodoxy – and there is no room for religious believers to dissent.


It's a long read, so i'll just quote few bits

By the time I took part in the event, (which had been moved to the basement of a hotel in central London), I felt my rights as a taxpayer, citizen and Christian had been trampled. I began to wonder if I had been the unlucky victim of an isolated incident or was in fact encountering a wider problem. I started to research the issue.

My findings were shocking: not only Christians, but also Muslims and Jews, increasingly feel they are no longer free to express any belief, no matter how deeply felt, that runs counter to the prevailing fashions for superficial “tolerance” and “equality” (terms which no longer bear their dictionary meaning but are part of a political jargon in which only certain views, and certain groups, count as legitimate).

Only 50 years ago, liberals supported “alternative culture”; they manned the barricades in protest against the establishment position on war, race and feminism. Today, liberals abhor any alternative to their credo. No one should offer an opinion that runs against the grain on issues that liberals consider “set in stone”, such as sexuality or the sanctity of life.

Intolerance is no longer the prerogative of overt racists and other bigots – it is state-sanctioned. It is no longer the case that the authorities are impartial on matters of belief, and will intervene to protect the interests and heritage of the weak. When it comes to crushing the rights of those who dissent from the new orthodoxy, politicians and bureaucrats alike are in the forefront of the attacks, not the defence.


Robin Ince Replies:

http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/01/chr ... advantages

Christians aren’t being driven out of public life – they’re just losing their unfair advantages

Cristina Odone confuses a loss of advantage with an act of oppression. This is the shock of those who are losing their divine right to dominate.
Last edited by Aca on Jan 17, 2014 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#3  Postby colubridae » Jan 17, 2014 7:52 pm

Aca wrote:
Christians aren’t being driven out of public life – they’re just losing their unfair advantages

Cristina Odone confuses a loss of advantage with an act of oppression. This is the shock of those who are losing their divine right to dominate.
And not before time. Harumph.
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#4  Postby Blackadder » Jan 17, 2014 7:52 pm

That would be the same Cristina Odone who was the Editor of The Catholic Herald?

Well she is bound to have an unbiased, objective view. Not.
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#5  Postby Nebogipfel » Jan 17, 2014 8:02 pm

In the upper house of the British parliament there are 26 people who are there solely because they are Christians.
The state religion of United Kingdom - which would be Christianity - gets to run a shedload of schools, supported by the taxpayers.

How, exactly, is Christianity being excluded from public life?
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Re: Christians aren’t being driven out of public life

#6  Postby Weaver » Jan 17, 2014 10:10 pm

Good article. Nicely destroys some of the dumb arguments of the "oppressed" majority
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#7  Postby Bribase » Jan 17, 2014 10:17 pm

I think everyone is fine with an expression of dissent. Just don't expect it not to be dismissed out of hand if it can't be qualified in ways other than ones that require you to follow the beliefs of a specific religion, or more often a specific sect to believe.

Liberalism is embraced because at base it speaks to the very heart of universal human concerns like free expression and human rights; Those same rights that protect freedom of religious expression.
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Re: Christians aren’t being driven out of public life

#8  Postby chairman bill » Jan 17, 2014 10:22 pm

“There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” Terry Pratchett
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#9  Postby Scarlett » Jan 17, 2014 10:28 pm

She [Cristina] warns of a world around the corner in which religion will be a secret activity behind closed doors.


Well, it doesn't need to be necessarily 'secret', just quiet and unobtrusive would do. :coffee:
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#10  Postby tolman » Jan 18, 2014 3:25 am

She does seem to see things, as many retards do, as a zero-sum game.

'Supporting traditional marriage' seems to mean 'arguing gay marriage shouldn;t happen', since clearly if some gay people end up happily married, that obviously depletes the known finite world stores of married happiness available for mixed-sex marriages.

I'd even go so far as to say Odone was actually being simply disingenuous:
The theme was “contrary to our diversity policy”, the society explained in an email to the organisers, “espousing as it does an ethos which is opposed to same-sex marriage”. In other words, the Law Society regarded support for heterosexual union, still the only legal form of marriage in Britain, as discriminatory.

I don't see that supporting someone necessarily requires attacking someone else.

If a parent goes to a sports day to support their child, that isn't generally understood to involve them trying to argue that competitors shouldn't get to play.

If I support a particular political candidate, I wouldn't hold a meeting claiming it was unfair that other candidates had a chance to stand because it might spoil my candidate's enjoyment.

Personally, I don't think any of my friends in mixed-sex marriages feel 'threatened' by gay people getting married.
But then, I tend not to choose silly reactionary bigots as friends.

Practising Christians, Jews and Muslims should also step forward into the limelight, dismantling prejudices that they must be suspect, lonely, losers.

And the way to achieve that is to write whining articles in the New Statesman complaining about how some people irrationally don't want homophobic bigots meeting on their premise?

What normal believer would really want to share the limelight with Odone?

It always puzzles me why people who seem to (claim to) find the idea of other people being gay and/or having gay sex being disturbing appear to spend so much time thinking and talking about it, even when they seem to claim that their obsession with gay people and/or gay sex risks making their own marriage less fulfilling.

Personally, I happily admit there are all manner of people who I'd really rather not think about the sexual antics of, for reasons including kinship, meaningful difference from my own and simple aesthetics, so I just don't think about them.
I don't find that at all hard to do - in fact, that not-thinking seems rather natural.
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#11  Postby THWOTH » Jan 18, 2014 4:32 am

Aca wrote:...

My findings were shocking: not only Christians, but also Muslims and Jews, increasingly feel they are no longer free to express any belief, no matter how deeply felt, that runs counter to the prevailing fashions for superficial “tolerance” and “equality” (terms which no longer bear their dictionary meaning but are part of a political jargon in which only certain views, and certain groups, count as legitimate)...

Of course the religiously inclined are free to hold and express their deeply held beliefs, it's just that society no longer treats those beliefs sacrosanct.
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#12  Postby Calilasseia » Jan 20, 2014 7:41 am

indeed, what Odone and her fellow mythology fetishists routinely fail to understand, is that "you cannot force others to treat your mythology as fact, and likewise cannot demand policy making privileges on that basis" isn't "persecution", it's merely the levelling of a playing field that supernaturalists have tilted in their direction for far too long. All that Odone is providing here, as has been noted elsewhere, is a petulant whinge, to the effect that no longer being able to force others to treat their pet mythologies as fact, somehow constitutes "persecution". It's steaming bullshit of the most odoriferous and suppurating order, and if this is the level of discourse Odone and other mythology fetishists bring to the table, then frankly, they don't deserve the privileges they want to steal for themselves in this regard, because they're manifestly discoursively incompetent.
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#13  Postby laklak » Jan 20, 2014 8:31 am

Fuck her and the horse she rode in on. Since when is refusing to capitulate to the unreasoning dogma of a bunch of illiterate, bronze age sheepfuckers an "attack"? You won't let us burn the witches! You're oppressing us! If it were up to me they'd find out exactly what "oppression" was when I burned their churches and strangled their priests with their own entrails. But that's just me, I tend to overreact occasionally.
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#14  Postby Blackadder » Jan 20, 2014 9:07 am

laklak wrote:Fuck her and the horse she rode in on. Since when is refusing to capitulate to the unreasoning dogma of a bunch of illiterate, bronze age sheepfuckers an "attack"? You won't let us burn the witches! You're oppressing us! If it were up to me they'd find out exactly what "oppression" was when I burned their churches and strangled their priests with their own entrails. But that's just me, I tend to overreact occasionally.


Not dissimilar to how Odone's religious forebears behaved last time they had untrammelled political power. You know, when their faith wasn't "under attack".
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: UK: Christianity/religion under attack

#15  Postby Scarlett » Jan 20, 2014 9:47 am

The Big Questions, that Sunday morning debate show, had a discussion around this yesterday. It was along the lines of 'Should religious rights override human rights?'

It was a hilarious watch. Actually the muslims in the debate were far more reasonable than the two christian women who insisted their rights must be respected. The banning of the burqa in France, in their opinion, was quite right. When it was pointed out, however, that the French law would also include the very large crosses/crucifixes they were wearing they were adamant the cross shouldn't be included :crazy:

You can't fight that kind of crazy :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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Christians aren’t being driven out of public life -

#16  Postby kennyc » Jan 25, 2014 3:48 pm

Christians aren’t being driven out of public life – they’re just losing their unfair advantages
Cristina Odone confuses a loss of advantage with an act of oppression. This is the shock of those who are losing their divine right to dominate.
BY ROBIN INCE PUBLISHED 17 JANUARY 2014 11:29

One of the prickly issues for a society that attempts to be liberal is how tolerant it must be of the intolerant. Writing in the last issue of this magazine, Cristina Odone says that she feels her rights as a taxpayer, a citizen and a Christian have been trampled on. She warns of a world around the corner in which religion will be a secret activity behind closed doors.

So, what is this dystopian vision of the future? A world where if you run a bed and breakfast, you cannot discriminate against gay couples, and you have to abide by the rules of the job you are contracted to do. That’s it, really.

No one in our society has it all their own way: as an atheist, I am just as much of a trampled-on taxpayer and citizen as Odone. I pay for the BBC, yet nobody non-religious is permitted on Radio 4’s Thought for the Day. Humanists are not allowed to lay a wreath during the annual remembrance ceremony at the Cenotaph. (The 14 faith groups that reviewed the ceremony decided this – the same groups that have supposedly been pushed out of the public arena.) There are 26 bishops in the House of Lords, there solely because of their religion.

As for education, schools in England and Wales are mandated to have daily Christian worship. What sort of state schools are forbidden in England and Wales? Despite the presumed anti-religious jackboot ruling over us, it’s not Catholic, Anglican, Muslim or Jewish schools: it is secular schools. You won’t find parents pretending to be atheists to get their children educated: “We had to go to lectures about Bertrand Russell every Saturday to make sure that we could get Cyril into our local atheist school.”

We can all play the victim game if we fancy it. Just as some men bleat that they are the oppressed because of feminism, Odone confuses a loss of advantage with an act of oppression. This is the shock of those who are losing their divine right to dominate.
....

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... r-unfair-a
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Re: Christians aren’t being driven out of public life -

#17  Postby mindhack » Jan 25, 2014 3:53 pm

(Ignorance --> Mystery) < (Knowledge --> Awe)
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