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willhud9 wrote:Creation (Genesis 1)
The account in Genesis 1 describes the creation of the universe and specifically Earth, by God. A large debate among Christian circles is whether or not the account should be taken literal or figuratively. As we will see the science and for that matter logic does not support a literal interpretation of the Genesis 1 creation account. So let us dive into the text:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Off the bat, we have the creation of the universe.
Beginning. The Hebrew translation of this word literally means "at the head" but lacks a definite article. So this phrase does not HAVE to mean a literal, finite beginning.
willhud9 wrote:This phrase in Hebrew is a generic phrase that means "everything."
The paralleling text is rather interesting and one of the further notes as to why it is a figurative creation account rather than literal. First of all, God creates light and dark 3 days before the illumination bodies filled the sky. What's up with that?Literally that cannot be true; it's illogical.
[/quote]willhud9 wrote:the odds of it being history seems far fetched as it does not have the same diction or syntax used in later history books of Israel. So we come to a third conclusion: the text has a purpose and context which transcends the actual Creation account.


Zwaarddijk wrote:Actually "head" and "beginning" both are what this word means. It's not typologically uncommon for words in languages to mean both: in a sense, the head is the beginning of the body (counting upwards). Claiming that it "literally" means "at the head" is going a bit far, really. A Hebrew speaker of the time the text was written probably would have understood it relatively literally. (However, I would like to find a discussion of Rashi's translation: "at the beginning of God's creating the heavens and earth, ...", I am not entirely sure whether he assumed the text had been wrongly vocalized by the masoretes or whatever reasoning he used.)

spin wrote:Zwaarddijk wrote:Actually "head" and "beginning" both are what this word means. It's not typologically uncommon for words in languages to mean both: in a sense, the head is the beginning of the body (counting upwards). Claiming that it "literally" means "at the head" is going a bit far, really. A Hebrew speaker of the time the text was written probably would have understood it relatively literally. (However, I would like to find a discussion of Rashi's translation: "at the beginning of God's creating the heavens and earth, ...", I am not entirely sure whether he assumed the text had been wrongly vocalized by the masoretes or whatever reasoning he used.)
I thought Rashi, like many Jews read reshit (ראשית) in a construct relationship with the clause headed by bara (ברא), "the beginning of (god created the heavens and the earth)". The normal question to resolve the issue is "the beginning of what?"

spin wrote:Zwaarddijk wrote:Actually "head" and "beginning" both are what this word means. It's not typologically uncommon for words in languages to mean both: in a sense, the head is the beginning of the body (counting upwards). Claiming that it "literally" means "at the head" is going a bit far, really. A Hebrew speaker of the time the text was written probably would have understood it relatively literally. (However, I would like to find a discussion of Rashi's translation: "at the beginning of God's creating the heavens and earth, ...", I am not entirely sure whether he assumed the text had been wrongly vocalized by the masoretes or whatever reasoning he used.)
I thought Rashi, like many Jews read reshit (ראשית) in a construct relationship with the clause headed by bara (ברא), "the beginning of (god created the heavens and the earth)". The normal question to resolve the issue is "the beginning of what?"
To clarify for other readers, the creation begins in Gen 1:3 when god utters his first words. V.2 is the state before god acts on the cosmos. "At the beginning of god's creating the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form and void, darkness was over the face of the deep and a wind of god hovered (like a bird) upon the face of the deep. God said, 'let there be light'" and so started the creation by turning the lights on.

paarsurrey wrote:spin wrote:Zwaarddijk wrote:Actually "head" and "beginning" both are what this word means. It's not typologically uncommon for words in languages to mean both: in a sense, the head is the beginning of the body (counting upwards). Claiming that it "literally" means "at the head" is going a bit far, really. A Hebrew speaker of the time the text was written probably would have understood it relatively literally. (However, I would like to find a discussion of Rashi's translation: "at the beginning of God's creating the heavens and earth, ...", I am not entirely sure whether he assumed the text had been wrongly vocalized by the masoretes or whatever reasoning he used.)
I thought Rashi, like many Jews read reshit (ראשית) in a construct relationship with the clause headed by bara (ברא), "the beginning of (god created the heavens and the earth)". The normal question to resolve the issue is "the beginning of what?"
To clarify for other readers, the creation begins in Gen 1:3 when god utters his first words. V.2 is the state before god acts on the cosmos. "At the beginning of god's creating the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form and void, darkness was over the face of the deep and a wind of god hovered (like a bird) upon the face of the deep. God said, 'let there be light'" and so started the creation by turning the lights on.
And the light was before the sun?!

spin wrote:paarsurrey wrote:spin wrote:Zwaarddijk wrote:Actually "head" and "beginning" both are what this word means. It's not typologically uncommon for words in languages to mean both: in a sense, the head is the beginning of the body (counting upwards). Claiming that it "literally" means "at the head" is going a bit far, really. A Hebrew speaker of the time the text was written probably would have understood it relatively literally. (However, I would like to find a discussion of Rashi's translation: "at the beginning of God's creating the heavens and earth, ...", I am not entirely sure whether he assumed the text had been wrongly vocalized by the masoretes or whatever reasoning he used.)
I thought Rashi, like many Jews read reshit (ראשית) in a construct relationship with the clause headed by bara (ברא), "the beginning of (god created the heavens and the earth)". The normal question to resolve the issue is "the beginning of what?"
To clarify for other readers, the creation begins in Gen 1:3 when god utters his first words. V.2 is the state before god acts on the cosmos. "At the beginning of god's creating the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form and void, darkness was over the face of the deep and a wind of god hovered (like a bird) upon the face of the deep. God said, 'let there be light'" and so started the creation by turning the lights on.
And the light was before the sun?!
Yup.
(If you want science, try an astrophysics book.)
Again to clarify, this creation is very structured. The first three days involve giving form to the cosmos:
1) light and dark,
2) sea and sky, and
3) land.
The second three days involves filling those spaces:
4) sun, moon and stars,
5) fish and birds, and
6) animals.
(This is the same notion found in the o.p.)
In this cosmological scenario obviously light came before the sun. The structure of creation was ordained when it talked of "without form and void". The first three days resolved the "without form" and the second three resolved the state of being void. It would be utterly ridiculous to suggest that the people who held this understanding of creation would have believed that god created the world state "without form and void".
Note the words "God made two great lights--the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night--and the stars." The light (thus day and night) was created on day 1. The sun and the moon on day 4 to rule over the day and night. The sun and moon are not seen as sources of the light, which preexisted them, but as apt rulers.


questioner121 wrote:I've read a number of bible verses which if taken literally refer to waters in the heaven. Have I taken a wrong interpretation of the verses? Any comments appreciated.

questioner121 wrote:If Genesis is to be taken literally, does that mean there is meant to be water above the sky?

Zwaarddijk wrote:questioner121 wrote:I've read a number of bible verses which if taken literally refer to waters in the heaven. Have I taken a wrong interpretation of the verses? Any comments appreciated.
At least there's water in the sky - the sky is a vault that keeps the waters up, so they don't drop down on the earth. Or are you thinking of something else?

questioner121 wrote:Zwaarddijk wrote:questioner121 wrote:I've read a number of bible verses which if taken literally refer to waters in the heaven. Have I taken a wrong interpretation of the verses? Any comments appreciated.
At least there's water in the sky - the sky is a vault that keeps the waters up, so they don't drop down on the earth. Or are you thinking of something else?
I was thinking of there being liquid water in the heavens above the sky. That's how I understand the bible verses. I''d appreciate any commentary regarding verses which talk about the waters in the heavens.

spin wrote:questioner121 wrote:Zwaarddijk wrote:questioner121 wrote:I've read a number of bible verses which if taken literally refer to waters in the heaven. Have I taken a wrong interpretation of the verses? Any comments appreciated.
At least there's water in the sky - the sky is a vault that keeps the waters up, so they don't drop down on the earth. Or are you thinking of something else?
I was thinking of there being liquid water in the heavens above the sky. That's how I understand the bible verses. I''d appreciate any commentary regarding verses which talk about the waters in the heavens.
When god separated the waters, he placed something called the raqia to hold the waters above. This raqia is frequently and not badly translated as "firmament", as it was solid. The word is derived from a verb used to describe the beating of metal (eg gold and silver), so the firmament is intimated here to be like (shiny) sheet metal. Elsewhere there is talk of opening the windows of heaven to cause rain (eg Gen 7:11; Mal 3:10 -- this latter regards blessings but uses a metaphor of rain).
One should note the idea in Ps 148:4, "Praise Him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that are above the heavens." (I don't expect too much consistency. Different writers had different conceptions.)

GakuseiDon wrote:Good post, Willhud! For myself, I don't think Genesis was either literal or metaphorical. (I've always wondered what exactly Genesis was supposed to be a metaphor for?) I agree it uses figurative language, though: I think few ancient Jewish and Christian scholars took "6 days" to mean 6 24-hour days.
I think what you highlighted is correct: the Genesis account would have been in stark contrast to the creation myths in Europe at that time. In Genesis, the sun, moon and stars are created objects, whereas in most other myths these would have been considered gods. So the Genesis account would have cut under such pagan beliefs, making religious assimilation difficult. Why give offerings to the sun if it is just an object? etc.
questioner121 wrote:Where does the word heaven come from?


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