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The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven. Thereupon these twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and kept showing his greatness with all modesty and uprightness. And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they are become famous.
But lest any one think that this is an unreasonable and reckless utterance, we demand that the charges against the Christians be investigated, and that, if these be substantiated, they be punished as they deserve; [or rather, indeed, we ourselves will punish them.] But if no one can convict us of anything, true reason forbids you, for the sake of a wicked rumour, to wrong blameless men, and indeed rather yourselves, who think fit to direct affairs, not by judgment, but by passion. And every sober-minded person will declare this to be the only fair and equitable adjustment, namely, that the subjects render an unexceptional account of their own life and doctrine; and that, on the other hand, the rulers should give their decision in obedience, not to violence and tyranny, but to piety and philosophy. For thus would both rulers and ruled reap benefit. For even one of the ancients somewhere said, "Unless both rulers and ruled philosophize, it is impossible to make states blessed." It is our task, therefore, to afford to all an opportunity of inspecting our life and teachings, lest, on account of those who are accustomed to be ignorant of our affairs, we should incur the penalty due to them for mental blindness; and it is your business, when you hear us, to be found, as reason demands, good judges. For if, when ye have learned the truth, you do not what is just, you will be before God without excuse.
dejuror wrote:Believers in the fables of Jesus of Nazareth were already in existence in the 2nd century CE and are found in writings attributed to Aristides and Justin Martyr.
Aristides' Apology to the Emperor Hadrian c 117-138 CE.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/aristides-kay.html
Justin's' First Apology addressed to the Emperor Antoninus c 138-161.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
Leucius Charinus wrote: .......You are free to subscribe to the aphorism ... IN-EUSEBIUS-WE-TRUST.
I am free to subscribe to the aphorism ... EUSEBIUS IS A CORRUPT SOURCE...
4. The Roman Tertullian is likewise a witness of this. He writes as follows: Examine your records. There you will find that Nero was the first that persecuted this doctrine, particularly then when after subduing all the east, he exercised his cruelty against all at Rome. We glory in having such a man the leader in our punishment. For whoever knows him can understand that nothing was condemned by Nero unless it was something of great excellence. Thus publicly announcing himself as the first among God's chief enemies, he was led on to the slaughter of the apostles. It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day.
Catholic Dogma wrote:The Roman Tertullian is likewise a witness of this
dejuror wrote:My position, based on the evidence, is that fables called Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the so-called Pauline Epistles with Jesus, the disciples and Paul were manufactured sometime after at least the writings of Josephus or at least after c 94 CE which is in complete contradiction to the writings attributed to Eusebius.
Leucius Charinus wrote:
The essay concerns a latest possible date (terminus ad quem).
Your comments relate to an earliest possible date (terminus a quo)
The historical truth must exist between these two upper and lower bounds.
dejuror wrote:
Based on the evidence I have seen so far, the terminus a quo is c 100 CE or at least immediately after the last writing attributed to Josephus [The Life of Flavius Josephus c 96 CE]
The (terminus ad quem is c 138 CE or just before the Apology attributed to Aristides which is addressed to Hadrian who was Emperor c 117-138 CE.
IN-EUSEBIUS-WE-TRUST wrote:
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An invaluable collection of primary documents for students of early Church history, doctrine and ethics. This set presents the complete writings of the Ante-Nicene, Nicene, and Post-Nicene Fathers. From Hendrickson.
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Volume 8: Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementina, Aprocryphal Gospels and Acts, Syriac Documents
Volume 9: Gospel of Peter, Diatessaron, Testament of Abraham, Epistles of Clement, Origen and Miscellaneous Works
Volume 10: Bibliography, General Index, Annotated Index of Authors and Works
Leucius Charinus wrote:dejuror wrote:
Based on the evidence I have seen so far, the terminus a quo is c 100 CE or at least immediately after the last writing attributed to Josephus [The Life of Flavius Josephus c 96 CE]
So you think that the earliest possible date for the origin of Christian literature (NT) and cult is after Josephus put the pen down?
This certainly reflects the ideas that some historians have concerning Josephus as a fundamental player....
But as soon as the news was come that he was hard by, and those that had met him at first related with what good humour he received every one that came to him; then it was that the whole multitude that had remained in the city, with their wives and children, came into the road, and waited for him there
And for those whom he passed by they made all sorts of acclamations, on account of the joy they had to see him, and the pleasantness of his countenance; and styled him their benefactor, and saviour; and the only person who was worthy to be ruler of the city of Rome.
And now the city was like a temple, full of garlands, and sweet odors. Nor was it easy for him to come to the royal palace, for the multitude of the people that stood about him, where yet at last he performed his sacrifices of thanksgiving to his household gods, for his safe return to the city
8 And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:
10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.
Leucius Charinus wrote:"The scanty and suspicious materials of ecclesiastical history seldom enable us
to dispel the dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church."
Based on the evidence I have seen so far the church industry was quite capable of forging all sorts of apologies and letters in the name of the glory of the church. When did Long Mark get forged? Or Constantine's Donation? When seeking the terminus ad quem within such an environment of literary fraud, one must ask for the earliest physical manuscript or archaeological relic....
dejuror wrote:Multiple NT Papyri have already been found and dated by paleography between c 125-250 CE which suggest that the latest possible date [terminus ad quem] for a Christian cult would be several decades before Eusebius.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_papyri
Leucius Charinus wrote:
It' is becoming reasonably evident that you have not actually taken any time to read through the seven page essay referenced in the OP. In particular the arguments made in regard to the certainty associated with the date ranges - specifically the upper bounds - allocated to these fragments by mean of paleographical dating in isolation.
dejuror wrote:I have read the essay referenced in the OP and have not found any actual evidence to defend a 4th century "terminus ad quem" for Christian origins.
Arguing that Carrier has made false claims about dating by paleography or c-14 does not relieve you from presenting actual credible historical evidence for your 4th century Christian origin hypothesis.
Leucius Charinus wrote:dejuror wrote:I have read the essay referenced in the OP and have not found any actual evidence to defend a 4th century "terminus ad quem" for Christian origins.
Arguing that Carrier has made false claims about dating by paleography or c-14 does not relieve you from presenting actual credible historical evidence for your 4th century Christian origin hypothesis.
Here is the final paragraph from the essay:This defence of a 4th century terminus ad quem for Christian origins is not a hypothesis that
Christianity was invented out of whole cloth in the 4th century. It represents a study showing
that there is insufficient citable historical evidence to comprehensively refute such a latest
possible date. The 1st century mainstream theory relies on the existence of theoretical
manuscripts and on giving the church industry the benefit of any doubt. There is no need for
that any more.
dejuror wrote: There is in fact insufficient evidence to defend a 4th century terminus ad quem for Christian origins
Leucius Charinus wrote:There is insufficient unambiguous evidence to falsify the late chronology.
Leucius Charinus wrote:It's no use citing the church fathers because the investigation is about asking whether the Nicene Church industry (over the centuries) had the means, motive and opportunity to fabricate a pre-Nicene Christian history in the 4th century. There is nothing wrong with asking this question. The historical method allows for any given source to be forged or corrupt. I am treating the church sources for the pre-Nicene epoch as one source. And classing it as corrupt. If you want to give it a name call it Eusebius.
Leucius Charinus wrote:Theoretically we could have some historical evidence from non-Christian sources, from archaeology or inscriptions or from manuscript discoveries which pre-date Constantine. But if so, what is this evidence?
"It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in Palestine. And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He interpreted and explained some of their books and even composed many, and they revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom11 they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.
dejuror wrote: If you admit that church sources are forged or corrupt then you must also admit that writings attributed to Eusebius are probably manipulated and could have been written far later.
There is Lucian of Samosata c 125-180 CE who mentioned people called Christians in the “Death of Peregrine”.
dejuror wrote: If you admit that church sources are forged or corrupt then you must also admit that writings attributed to Eusebius are probably manipulated and could have been written far later.
Leucius Charinus wrote:Absolutely. The writings of Eusebius were preserved by his continuators in the Nicene Church industry.
Leucius Charinus wrote:.... However unambiguous evidence for the existence of the NT writings and the presence of the Christian cult appears by the mid 4th century. This unambiguous evidence includes the oldest Greek Bible codices, archaeological evidence of basilicas, the upper-bound dating of papyri fragments, inscriptions, art, coins, funery relief and radiocarbon dates (Gospel of Judas).
Scientists at the University of Arizona's Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) lab in Tucson, Ariz., have radiocarbon dated an ancient Coptic manuscript containing the only known surviving Gospel of Judas at between A.D. 220 and A.D. 340............
dejuror wrote:There is Lucian of Samosata c 125-180 CE who mentioned people called Christians in the “Death of Peregrine”.
Leucius Charinus wrote:This statement needs to be qualified by the conditional statement that it is not a later forgery. We have plenty of evidence to suggest that many works were forged in the name of Lucian.
Among the eighty-two works of Lucian known to A.M. Harmon (Loeb, 1913) at least fifteen forgeries are listed, some of which are clearly Christian forgeries (e.g., Philopatris)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philopatris
No cigar.
dejuror wrote:Eusebius?? Who was Eusebius? Was he the bishop of Rome? Does anyone know of a convert to Christianity under Eusebius?
Leucius Charinus wrote:.... However unambiguous evidence for the existence of the NT writings and the presence of the Christian cult appears by the mid 4th century.
Radiocarbon dating of the gospel of Judas does not alter the argument that the Jesus cult of Christians started before the 4th century.
dejuror wrote:You have not shown that "The Death of Peregrinus" attributed to Lucian of Samosata was a forgery.
Now, the Philopatris does not mention Jesus, the disciples, Paul or Christians.
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