Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

The sources of "Chrestian" [χρηστιανος] and "Christian" [χριστιανος] in Antiquity

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#201  Postby dejuror » Mar 25, 2016 3:58 am

The Sinaiticus Codex of the NT with Acts of the Apostles and 1st Peter is evidence that people were not called Christians until after the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

Non-apologetic writings do not show that there was a person called Christ who was followed or worshiped as a God by anyone anywhere in or outside the Roman Empire up to at least the end of the 1st century.
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#202  Postby Homer MakeDonski » Mar 25, 2016 10:23 am

dejuror wrote:The Sinaiticus Codex of the NT with Acts of the Apostles and 1st Peter is evidence that people were not called Christians until after the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

Non-apologetic writings do not show that there was a person called Christ who was followed or worshiped as a God by anyone anywhere in or outside the Roman Empire up to at least the end of the 1st century.


Dejuror
Thanks for your explanations.I think they gave me up an answer of my own dilemma
When Jesus was named as Christ .
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#203  Postby Homer MakeDonski » Mar 25, 2016 10:30 am

In Macedonia my guesses are that Jesus was described with epithet of Slovo from very beginning of Christianity .
As a matter of fact that Slovene terms could be related only to Jesus on a way Slovene are Slovo converted believers.
To make my self clear Slovo standing for The Word at Theology concept.
Theos+ Logos =Theology for Westerners
Bog+ Slovo =Bogoslovija for Macedonian as part of Easterners
:)
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#204  Postby tuco » Mar 25, 2016 10:55 am

Forgive me off topic but its my fav .. I offer another interpretation of "logos".

In the beginning was RNA, and RNA was with God, and RNA was God. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

Bases for interpreting "logos" like that is, in my opinion, supported by Jeanne Fahnestock who states:

The Stoic philosophers identified the term with the divine animating principle pervading the universe.

Logos is logical appeal, and the term logic is derived from it. It is normally used to describe facts and figures that support the speaker's topic.


http://www.mountainman.com.au/ESSENES/a ... etoric.htm
---

So basically it was the aliens .. who appealed to ignorance, however, feel free to call it bullshit :)
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#205  Postby Homer MakeDonski » Mar 25, 2016 11:08 am

hehe
like it Bro
I do have my own explanation that is about Make Don ia that Beginning and God enigma
when I will find some spare time ...might you will have it as alien stuff as well
:)
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#206  Postby julchip » Mar 27, 2016 6:30 pm

The obvious answer but the most unbelievable is that we are talking about two different sets of people following two different leaders.
The full explanation and many other revelations will be coming out in summer in a new book - 'Crucifixion's a Doddle'
But just so you don't think this is totally ridiculous. This is from Edward Gibbon's source book: The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
‘Under the appellation of Galileans, two distinctions of men were confounded, the most opposite to each other in their manners and principles; the disciples who had embraced the faith of Jesus of Nazareth, and the zealots who had followed the standard of Judas the Gaulonite. The followers of Judas, who impelled their countrymen into rebellion, were soon buried under the ruins of Jerusalem; whilst those of Jesus, known by the more celebrated name of Christians, diffused themselves over the Roman Empire. How natural was it for Tacitus, in the time of Hadrian, to appropriate to the Christians the guilt and the sufferings, which he might, with far greater truth and justice, have attributed to a sect whose odious memory was almost extinguished.' (Gibbon)
And so you do not think this is the only revelation in this book - here is the irrefutable evidence that Jesus was alive after Pilate left Judea. http://www.juliandoyle.info/www.juliand ... ODDLE.html
This book has arisen when the author watched the messy attempt at crucifying the Monty Python team for their film Life of Brian and realised it did not work.
.
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#207  Postby RealityRules » Mar 27, 2016 8:07 pm

julchip wrote:
The obvious answer but the most unbelievable is that we are talking about two different sets of people following two different leaders ...

That is not unbelievable or ridiculous - it's highly likely that the NT stories have borrowed from more than one 'tradition'

This is interesting, thanks -
This is from Edward Gibbon's source book: The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

    ‘Under the appellation of Galileans, two distinctions of men were confounded, the most opposite to each other in their manners and principles; the disciples who had embraced the faith of Jesus of Nazareth, and the zealots who had followed the standard of Judas the Gaulonite. The followers of Judas, who impelled their countrymen into rebellion, were soon buried under the ruins of Jerusalem; whilst those of Jesus, known by the more celebrated name of Christians, diffused themselves over the Roman Empire. How natural was it for Tacitus, in the time of Hadrian, to appropriate to the Christians the guilt and the sufferings, which he might, with far greater truth and justice, have attributed to a sect whose odious memory was almost extinguished.' (Gibbon)

But there might be more to it than just a binary of disciples or zealots (under Judas the Gaulonite (or Judas the Galilean) or other locals

    (what does 'Gaulointe' mean? the same as Galilean, or another region?)).

Ebionites, Samarians, etc are all in the mix as potential contributions to the NT narratives.

The stories may have been written outside the region, and also borrowed 'traditions' from far and wide.


This is interesting; thanks, again -
julchip wrote:
And so you do not think this is the only revelation in this book - here is the irrefutable evidence that Jesus was alive after Pilate left Judea. http://www.juliandoyle.info/www.juliand ... ODDLE.html


" ..it appears that that date [of Jesus crucifixion] is most likely AD 38 ["well after the date Pilate left Judea"].."

... in AD 325 at the first Ecumenical Council, the Church fathers produced the Nicene Creed, which, is central to all forms of Christianity. The creed begins with, “We believe in one God the father….etc etc”. But fifty years later in Constantinople in AD 381, the [2nd Ecumenical] Council met .. and added something new to the creed. It was this:

    ‘He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate’
So, some 350 years after the events, the crucifixion by Pilate suddenly became matters of faith, which could not be questioned.

There was a huge body of literature around Pilate leading up to and around 381 AD. There is or are so-called 'Acts of Pilate' (Acti Pilati); There is also a 'Report of Pilate to the Emperor Claudius’, which is given as a Latin-translation appendix to the Evangelium Nicodemix (ie. the Gospel of Nicodemus; aka Gesta Salvatoris), and is also inserted in Greek into the late Acts of Peter and Paul.

Justin Martyr remarks in his first Apology (35), ~150-160 AD, after he mentioned the passion and crucifixion of Jesus; "and that these things happened, you can ascertain from the 'Acts of Pontius Pilate'." A similar statement occurs in Apology 48.

Tertullian refers twice to a 'report made by Pilate to Tiberius'. According to [Tertullian], Pontius Pilate informed the Emperor of the unjust sentence of death which he had pronounced against an innocent and divine person; the Emperor was so moved by his [Pilate's] 'report' of the miracles of Christ and his resurrection, that he proposed the reception of Christ among the gods of Rome. But the Senate refused (Apologeticum 5). Tertullian says in Apol. 21, 24 that the "whole story of Christ was reported to 'Caesar' [at that time, Tiberius] by Pilate, himself in his secret heart already a Christian". Tertullian’s Apologeticum was composed before the year 197 AD.

These writings seem to reflect a desire to use the Roman procurator as a witness for the "history of the death and resurrection of Christ" and "the truth" of Christianity.


Other apocryphal 'reports of Pilate', including the Anaphora Pilati, a 'Letter of Pilate to Tiberius'*, the Paradosis Pilati, 'the sentence of Pilate by the Emperor', and correspondence between Pilate and Herod, belong to the Middle Ages.”

    * written in renaissance Latin, probably in the 16th century. The letter cannot be traced any earlier than the renaissance.
a 'Letter of Tiberius to Pilate' takes an unfavourable view of Pilate and alludes to a journey by Mary Magdalene to Rome to accuse Pilate.
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#208  Postby dejuror » Mar 28, 2016 12:06 pm

julchip wrote:......
And so you do not think this is the only revelation in this book - here is the irrefutable evidence that Jesus was alive after Pilate left Judea. http://www.juliandoyle.info/www.juliand ... ODDLE.html
This book has arisen when the author watched the messy attempt at crucifying the Monty Python team for their film Life of Brian and realised it did not work.


There is no "irrefutable evidence" that Jesus of the NT lived.

It is irrefutable that there are contradictory claims in Christian writings about the time of crucifixion for their Jesus of Nazareth, the son of a Ghost, the Logos [the Lord from heaven].

In Christian writings their Jesus was God from the beginning.
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#209  Postby RealityRules » Mar 29, 2016 7:39 am

dejuror wrote:
In Christian writings their Jesus was God from the beginning.

Hard to know - there were disputes about the theology until the 2nd Ecumenical Council Meeting in Constantinople in 381 CE, and there were 5 more of those Ecumenical Council meets over the next century or so.
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#210  Postby dejuror » Mar 29, 2016 12:18 pm

It cannot be disputed that Christian writings do claim that their Jesus the Logos was God from the beginning

These are excerpts from multiple Christian writings [Papyri 66, Papyri 75, the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus Codex].



John 1:1-3
εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν ----- N-A28 P75 01 02 03
εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον [θεον] και θεος ην ο λογος ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον [θεον] παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδεν ο γεγονεν ---- P66



John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came into being through him, and without him came into being not one thing that is in being.

We know what is written in Christian writings of antiquity about their Jesus.
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#211  Postby Leucius Charinus » Mar 30, 2016 7:30 am

dejuror wrote:We know what is written in Christian writings of antiquity about their Jesus.


Evidence of forgery and interpolation written in Christian writings of antiquity about their Jesus is abundant.

These orthodox Christian writings were preserved in the imperially sponsored scriptoria of the Roman Christian Emperors under the management of the Nicene Church organisation which witnessed legalisation in Roman law during the rule of Theodosius.


2008: AD 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Christian State - Charles Freeman

    Description:

      'We authorise followers of this law to assume the title of orthodox Christians; but as for the others since, in our judgement, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious names of heretics.' - Emperor Theodosius.

    In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of the Godhead; all other interpretations were now declared heretical.


    Moreover, for the first time in a thousand years of Greco-Roman civilization free thought was unambiguously suppressed. Not since the attempt of the pharaoh Akhenaten to impose his god Aten on his Egyptian subjects in the fourteenth century BC had there been such a widesweeping programme of religious coercion.

    Yet surprisingly this political revolution, intended to bring inner cohesion to an empire under threat from the outside, has been airbrushed from the historical record. Instead, it has been claimed that the Christian Church had reached a consensus on the Trinity which was promulgated at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. In this groundbreaking new book, acclaimed historian Charles Freeman shows that the council was in fact a shambolic affair, which only took place after Theodosius' decree had become law. In short, the Church was acquiescing in the overwhelming power of the emperor. Freeman argues that Theodosius' edict and the subsequent suppression of paganism not only brought an end to the diversity of religious and philosophical beliefs throughout the empire but created numerous theological problems for the Church, which have remained unsolved. The year AD 381, Freeman concludes, marked 'a turning point which time forgot'.

"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#212  Postby Leucius Charinus » Mar 30, 2016 7:39 am

julchip wrote:This book has arisen when the author watched the messy attempt at crucifying the Monty Python team for their film Life of Brian and realised it did not work..


HA HA HA.

If you have a feel for satire, and have a good knowledge of the Gnostic "far side" books, maybe you can tell me why the Apostle John resurrects smoked herring, why he commands a legion of bedbugs, why he followed Jesus around everywhere hoping to see a footprint in the sand - but alas he did not, why the Apostle Paul baptised a talking lion in the wilderness, and how that lion saved him at the end just like Aesop's fables, why Pilate tells the Jews that Jesus heals by the power of the healing god Asclepius?

I don't buy the chronology in either the NT or in Jospephus. I buy the chronology of evidence external to the dogmatic claims of the church organisation and there is very little of it to corroborate the existence of the great "Nation of Christians" before their saviour Constantine appeared on the western horizon.



.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#213  Postby RealityRules » May 25, 2016 12:07 am

Arianism is Chrestianity and Christianity is largely Chrestianity, with the Trinity added ...

Both Chrestianity and Christianity are pagan, and although the earlier derives from the Ptolemaic faith of Cleopatra VII (the resurrected Isis), there were plenty of trinities in those days, across the Levant and Egypt; there was even a Roman imperial trinity ...

http://origins-of-christianity.blogspot ... l?spref=tw


from a link in the article -
  • A new religion appears in the first century of the modern era and its divine man is explicitly given the title Chrest; his first name is never spelled out, but abbreviated, usually as IS. This religion is therefore termed properly Chrestianity.
  • The gospel stories are not historical, of Judea in the first century; they are literary and comparison of them to historical accounts shows conclusively that they parody these people and the events with which they are associated.
https://sites.google.com/site/originsof ... -testament
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#214  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 29, 2016 2:52 am

Thanks for the recent articles RR.

John Bartram continues to draw out elements of the ancient historical evidence which are relevant to this issue of the name of the so-called "Christians". The earliest of this evidence, from literary to epigraphic, leans heavily towards the name being written as "Chrestians".

We must not forget that it was the church organisation of the middle ages that eventually settled on the name of the "Christians". The name was to represent the tribe or nation of people who followed the worship of the canonical NT Bible Stories. (The earliest codices of which call them "Chrestians").

If anyone thinks the historical mystery of Christian origins is simple, think again.

During the rule of Emperor Julian neither names were used. Instead Julian legislated that the followers of the canonical Jesus Stories were to be known as the "Galilaeans". This reflected a meaning that related to the lawless brigands of the Judaean badlands. This historical period only lasted between 360-363 CE, but it may be vitally important.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#215  Postby dejuror » May 29, 2016 10:06 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:....We must not forget that it was the church organisation of the middle ages that eventually settled on the name of the "Christians". The name was to represent the tribe or nation of people who followed the worship of the canonical NT Bible Stories. (The earliest codices of which call them "Chrestians").


It is in Acts of the Apostles, a known established source of fiction, where it is claimed the disciples were first called Chrestians in Antioch.

But, of course, that claim is false.

The people called Chrestians were not followers of or believed in a character called Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, Son of God and Creator.

No such Jesus of Nazareth ever existed.
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#216  Postby dejuror » May 29, 2016 10:07 pm

duplicated
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#217  Postby dejuror » Jun 04, 2016 3:38 pm

The fact that the word for ChrEstians had to manipulated in Tacitus Annals 15.44 is evidence that ChrEstians [followers of the Good One] were NOT the same as ChrIstians [followers of the Anointed] and that there were NO ChrIstians [followers of the Anointed] up to the time of composition of Acts of the Apostles and 1 Peter.

In the earliest surviving manuscript of the NT there is no mention of followers of χριστου but followers of χρηστος.

Examine the Sinaiticus Codex
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=51&chapter=11&lid=en&side=r&verse=26&zoomSlider=0
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=51&chapter=26&lid=en&side=r&verse=28&zoomSlider=0
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=53&chapter=4&lid=en&side=r&verse=16&zoomSlider=0

Acts 11.26 -- χρηϲτιανουϲ---followers of the Good One.

Acts 26.28 --- χρηϲτιανον----follower of the Good One.

1 Peter 4.16----χρηϲτιανοϲ---follower of the Good One.



Now, if Jesus did exist and was known as χριστου then the supposed followers of χριστου would be called χριστιανους.


Christian writings are evidence of their own bogus history.

There was no actual person called Jesus of Nazareth χριστου and no followers of χριστου before c 70 CE.
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#218  Postby duvduv » Jun 05, 2016 2:57 am

Is it possible to reconstruct the whole environment and person of Chrestus to gain a clearer perspective of who he and his followers were, and when they ceased to exist to be replaced in the conventional narrative by Jesus of the NT and the Christians?
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#219  Postby RealityRules » Jun 05, 2016 9:20 am

duvduv wrote:Is it possible to reconstruct the whole environment and person of Chrestus to gain a clearer perspective of who he and his followers were, and when they ceased to exist to be replaced in the conventional narrative by Jesus of the NT and the Christians?

I wonder if "Chrestus" is associated with 'the Egyptian' ... and if they [he?] had something do with the 'Corpus Hermeticum' -
The Hermetic tradition represents a non-Christian lineage of Hellenistic Gnosticism. The tradition and its writings date to at least the first century B.C.E., and the texts we possess were all written prior to the second century C.E. The surviving writings of the tradition, known as the 'Corpus Hermeticum' (the "Hermetic body of writings") were lost to the Latin West after classical times, but survived in eastern Byzantine libraries. Their rediscovery and translation into Latin during the late-fifteenth century, by the Italian Renaissance court of Cosimo de Medici, provided a seminal force in the development of Renaissance thought and culture. These eighteen tracts of the Corpus Hermeticum, along with the Perfect Sermon (also called the Asclepius), are the foundational documents of the Hermetic tradition.

http://gnosis.org/library/hermet.htm#NHL
The Corpus Hermeticum are the core documents of the Hermetic tradition. Dating from early in the Christian era, they were mistakenly dated to a much earlier period by Church officials (and everyone else) up until the 15th century. Because of this, they were allowed to survive; [so can be] seen as an early precursor to what was to be Christianity ...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/herm/
The fifteen tractates of the Corpus Hermeticum, along with 'The Perfect Sermon' or 'The Asclepius', are the foundation documents of the Hermetic tradition. Written by unknown authors in Egypt sometime before the end of the third century C.E., they were part of a once substantial literature attributed to the mythic figure of Hermes Trismegistus, a Hellenistic fusion of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth.

This literature came out of the same religious and philosophical ferment that produced Neoplatonism, Christianity, and the diverse collection of teachings usually lumped together under the label "Gnosticism": a ferment which had its roots in the impact of Platonic thought on the older traditions of the Hellenized East.

http://hermetic.com/texts/hermetica/h-intro.html

Many Christian writers, including Lactantius, Augustine, Giordano Bruno, Marsilio Ficino, Campanella and Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, considered Hermes Trismegistus to be a wise pagan prophet who foresaw the coming of Christianity.[13][14] They believed in a prisca theologia: the doctrine that a single, true theology exists, which threads through all religions. It was [believed to have been] given by God to man in antiquity[15][16] and passed through a series of prophets, which included Zoroaster and Plato. In order to demonstrate the verity of the prisca theologia, Christians appropriated the Hermetic teachings for their own purposes. By this account, Hermes Trismegistus was either, according to the fathers of the Christian church, [i] a contemporary of Moses[17], or [ii] the third in a line of men named Hermes, i.e. Enoch, Noah, and the Egyptian priest king who is known to us as Hermes Trismegistus,[18], [iii] or "thrice great" on account of being the greatest priest, philosopher and king.[18][19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus

Many of the Hermetic writings closely resemble portions of the Gospel of John ... Martin Luther actually believed that the author of 'the Corpus' had merely copied the writings of John the Evangelist. A very old Egyptian text says:

    “In the beginning was Thoth; and Thoth was in Atum; and Thoth was Atum in the unfathomable reaches of primordial space.”
The Prologue of John’s Gospel, beginning with “The Word was with God and The Word was God”, closely resembles the actions of Thoth – and Thoth was the Egyptian name of Hermes, the god of Wisdom. Marsilio Ficino himself did not fail to see the similarities between the Corpus Hermeticum and John’s Gospel and even stressed these in his introduction to his translation.

http://philipcoppens.com/ficino_mag.html
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Re: Evidence of name change: "Chrestian" to "Christian"

#220  Postby dejuror » Jun 05, 2016 4:47 pm

duvduv wrote:Is it possible to reconstruct the whole environment and person of Chrestus to gain a clearer perspective of who he and his followers were, and when they ceased to exist to be replaced in the conventional narrative by Jesus of the NT and the Christians?


The Lord God the Creator is Chrestos [χρηστος ]according to the Greek OT.

The Greek OT was written before the fables called Gospels.

http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/19_105.htm

Greek OT Psalms
105:1 αλληλουια εξομολογεισθε τω κυριω οτι χρηστος οτι εις τον αιωνα το ελεος αυτου


Psalms 105.1
Praise ye the Lord. O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.



Sometime in the 2nd century Christians invented a character called Jesus Christ who was their LORD GOD and Creator.


John 1 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made..



The Christians hijacked the Greek OT and made their Jesus equal to the Lord God Creator--the Good One [ Chrestos] [χρηστος ].
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