Fatima children

Canonisation

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Re: Fatima children

#21  Postby chairman bill » May 13, 2017 4:14 pm

John Platko wrote:... There are many control issues with intercessory prayer studies...


Not least that any researcher is looking for something that isn't there
“There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” Terry Pratchett
User avatar
chairman bill
RS Donator
 
Posts: 28122
Male

Country: UK: fucked since 2010
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Fatima children

#22  Postby John Platko » May 13, 2017 4:35 pm

chairman bill wrote:
John Platko wrote:... There are many control issues with intercessory prayer studies...


Not least that any researcher is looking for something that isn't there


Well we also learned that the placebo effect can seem miraculous.

But to be clear, I find this use of the children of Fatima to be inappropriate for many reasons.

But you got to love God's timing of the miracle.

from

Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes prepares program to celebrate jubilee year of the centennial of the apparitions of Fatima
Visit of Pope Francisco will be accompanied in Lourdes with a live transmission from Cova da Iria
 
The Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes, in France, wishes to associate to the Shrine of Fatima for the occasion of the celebration of the Centennial of the Apparitions and prepared a special program for the pilgrims who pass there, with a highlight for the visit of Pope Francis, in May, transmitting the emission of the celebrations from the signal distributed by the Shrine of Fatima.
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#23  Postby newolder » May 13, 2017 5:44 pm

John Platko wrote:
newolder wrote:Intercessory prayer definitely does not work.
The Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) found two major results:
1) “Intercessory prayer had no effect on recovery from surgery without complications.”
2) “Patients who knew they were receiving intercessory prayer fared worse.”

read on


That study has been debunked on the forum long ago. There are many control issues with intercessory prayer studies.

Then it will be easy for you to supply links.

Here's a relevant wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_o ... ory_prayer
Meta-studies of the literature in the field have been performed showing evidence only for no effect or a potentially small effect. For instance, a 2006 meta analysis on 14 studies concluded that there is "no discernible effect" while a 2007 systemic review of intercessory prayer reported inconclusive results, noting that 7 of 17 studies had "small, but significant, effect sizes" but the review noted that the most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings.

The STEP study is also on that page and, of course, the notes do not 'debunk' the findings.

On another note, the Holy Spirit tells me - or perhaps is was just an angel, that there will be an uptick in pilgrimages to the Shrine of Fatima. :roll:

Your imaginary friends are irrelevant.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 6900
Age: 9
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#24  Postby John Platko » May 13, 2017 6:11 pm

newolder wrote:
John Platko wrote:
newolder wrote:Intercessory prayer definitely does not work.
The Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) found two major results:
1) “Intercessory prayer had no effect on recovery from surgery without complications.”
2) “Patients who knew they were receiving intercessory prayer fared worse.”

read on


That study has been debunked on the forum long ago. There are many control issues with intercessory prayer studies.

Then it will be easy for you to supply links.


Till the cows come home. e.g. here, here, here. Even Hackenslash found the study flawed


Here's a relevant wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_o ... ory_prayer
Meta-studies of the literature in the field have been performed showing evidence only for no effect or a potentially small effect. For instance, a 2006 meta analysis on 14 studies concluded that there is "no discernible effect" while a 2007 systemic review of intercessory prayer reported inconclusive results, noting that 7 of 17 studies had "small, but significant, effect sizes" but the review noted that the most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings.


On another note, the Holy Spirit tells me - or perhaps is was just an angel, that there will be an uptick in pilgrimages to the Shrine of Fatima. :roll:

Your imaginary friends are irrelevant.


Would you like to bet against what they whispered in my ear - that visits to the Shrine of Fatima will increase because of the deemed miracles?
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#25  Postby newolder » May 13, 2017 6:18 pm

John Platko wrote:...
Till the cows come home. e.g. here, here, here. Even Hackenslash found the study flawed

Nice, but futile, try. Did you read the wiki page and if so, what part of
The review noted that the most methodologically rigorous studies had failed to produce significant findings.

are you failing to grasp here? (Note: The "review" being a 2007 link in the reference list.)
Would you like to bet against what they whispered in my ear - that visits to the Shrine of Fatima will increase because of the deemed miracles?

Why would I want or like to bet on an irrelevancy? :scratch: I think visits there may well increase - there's a sucker born every minute, after all.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 6900
Age: 9
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#26  Postby John Platko » May 13, 2017 7:53 pm

newolder wrote:
John Platko wrote:...
Till the cows come home. e.g. here, here, here. Even Hackenslash found the study flawed

Nice, but futile, try. Did you read the wiki page and if so, what part of
The review noted that the most methodologically rigorous studies had failed to produce significant findings.

are you failing to grasp here? (Note: The "review" being a 2007 link in the reference list.)


:sigh: I'll spell it out. The studies are flawed because you can't control who prays for people in the way you can control who actually gets real drugs. Are medical studies involving the administration of drugs done without controls on who actually gets the drugs?


Would you like to bet against what they whispered in my ear - that visits to the Shrine of Fatima will increase because of the deemed miracles?

Why would I want or like to bet on an irrelevancy? :scratch: I think visits there may well increase - there's a sucker born every minute, after all.


Ahhh, perhaps an angel or two also paid a visit to you. :nod:
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#27  Postby I'm With Stupid » May 13, 2017 8:19 pm

solazy wrote:Don't believe in miracles but can't actually see the harm in believing in them in this dull old world.

The harm is when organisations and individuals use such beliefs to exploit poor and vulnerable people in desperate situations. The claims of miracles are basically just a PR exercise for the Catholic church to keep the money rolling in. The "investigations" into miracles are nothing more than an exercise in making sure there's no risk of the people involved coming back to say "actually, we made the whole thing up." Ever wonder why they always wait until the alleged miracle workers and direct witnesses are dead before confirming a miracle?

solazy wrote:While there is no real evidence that prayer works it could be a form of mindfulness which helps the brain and body.

It could. Do a proper study and find out.
Image
User avatar
I'm With Stupid
 
Posts: 9473
Age: 35
Male

Country: Malaysia
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Fatima children

#28  Postby Fallible » May 13, 2017 8:48 pm

Oh great, Platko's turned up. Thread over.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 50468
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#29  Postby newolder » May 13, 2017 10:15 pm

John Platko wrote:...
:sigh: I'll spell it out. The studies are flawed because you can't control who prays for people in the way you can control who actually gets real drugs. Are medical studies involving the administration of drugs done without controls on who actually gets the drugs?

You don't seem to understand the idea of randomised controlled trials.

...
Ahhh, perhaps an angel or two also paid a visit to you. :nod:

You appear to be dribbling into your bib again, shall I call for a nurse?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 6900
Age: 9
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#30  Postby chairman bill » May 13, 2017 11:07 pm

You can't control who had a goat sacrificed to Beelzebub - maybe that's the secret sauce.
“There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” Terry Pratchett
User avatar
chairman bill
RS Donator
 
Posts: 28122
Male

Country: UK: fucked since 2010
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#31  Postby Arcanyn » May 14, 2017 4:24 am

solazy wrote:31 years after she died her face showed no sign of decomposition?
Were the worms on strike?


Clearly she's a vampire.
Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals. Only when someone is free from constraints and consequences do they show their true character.

Sign the petition for the William Lane Craig/David Icke debate here:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/craigickedebate/signatures
User avatar
Arcanyn
 
Posts: 1464
Age: 35
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#32  Postby Animavore » May 14, 2017 4:53 am

Hmmm... Song always works in the movies. :think:
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 43470
Age: 41
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#33  Postby THWOTH » May 14, 2017 8:44 am

chairman bill wrote:Of course it's not a fucking miracle. What damage did he do to his frontal cortex? How do we know the extent of this? The brain operates on distributed systems, and often it's the case that minor damage can be by-passed, with the brain connecting alternative routes around the damaged area. That's biology, not supernaturalist bollocks.

Oh yea of little faith.
"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
Michel de Montaigne, Essais, 1580
User avatar
THWOTH
RS Donator
 
Name: Penrose
Posts: 37101
Age: 55

Country: Untied Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#34  Postby solazy » May 14, 2017 10:33 am

I'm With Stupid wrote:
solazy wrote:Don't believe in miracles but can't actually see the harm in believing in them in this dull old world.

The harm is when organisations and individuals use such beliefs to exploit poor and vulnerable people in desperate situations. The claims of miracles are basically just a PR exercise for the Catholic church to keep the money rolling in. The "investigations" into miracles are nothing more than an exercise in making sure there's no risk of the people involved coming back to say "actually, we made the whole thing up." Ever wonder why they always wait until the alleged miracle workers and direct witnesses are dead before confirming a miracle?

I don't see that exploitation is on the agenda. I've been to Lourdes on 3 occasions and found it to be a pleasant enough experience and the scenery around is magnificent. Granted, the souvenir shops are tacky. I wouldn't mind a trip to Fatima.

Where does Richard Dawkins go for a pilgrimage? Maybe he's tried going to Darwin's birthplace, The Mount in Shrewsbury and found it to now be the offices of a financial company and effectively out of bounds.

I guess the reason why sainthood is only conferred on the dead is because who living would want the publicity.

There's still a place in England (there always is) where a peasant had a vision of the Virgin Mary well over 1000 years before Lourdes and Fatima. What's more there are no souvenir shops and greedy hoteliers.
This place is Evesham in Worcestershire and it does attract some pilgrims. All it has is a small statue.
Evesham Abbey was founded by Saint Egwin at Evesham in Worcestershire, England between 700 and 710 AD following an alleged vision of the Virgin Mary by a swineherd by the name of Eof.
solazy
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Steve Wilkes
Posts: 215

Country: UK
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#35  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 14, 2017 10:50 am

The Irish know a thing or two when it comes to pilgrimages.
Image

Knock. Even Ryan Air has flights to the place. Plenty of shops selling empty bottles for holy water:

Image
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 43118
Age: 71
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Fatima children

#36  Postby Fallible » May 14, 2017 10:56 am

Image
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 50468
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#37  Postby solazy » May 14, 2017 11:59 am

Knock it off you guys.
Now I'll have to put Knock and Craggy Island on my travel wish list.

http://www.tedtours.com/
solazy
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Steve Wilkes
Posts: 215

Country: UK
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#38  Postby Shrunk » May 14, 2017 12:13 pm

solazy wrote:https://www.voanews.com/a/brazilian-boy-survival-brain-injury-fatima-miracle/3848137.html

So the doctors were wrong and he just had a minor injury.


Well, it sounds like he had quite a significant injury (He was in a coma) but, sure, they could have been wrong in the prognosis. That's easy to do. We also don't have any firsthand report from the doctor's themselves.

Of course, I don't really know how the Vatican defines a miracle. Maybe they think doctors are infallible like the Pope, so when they get something wrong it's miraculous.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#39  Postby solazy » May 14, 2017 12:39 pm

Shrunk wrote:Of course, I don't really know how the Vatican defines a miracle. Maybe they think doctors are infallible like the Pope, so when they get something wrong it's miraculous.

The Vatican is not going to beatify non Catholics.
There should be no other valid explanation for the miracle.
How can they be so sure? I don't know.
But look at it this way. We are all miracles. By the law of nature someone should be here in place of each and every one of us. The set of all humans on earth right now should be a completely different set. That's why we believe in miracles. Try subtracting the whole universe, and what have you got? Nothing! Except that nothing implies something. That we can't explain.
For sure, we are all fucking animals just like any other living form of evolutionary drift that ever happened on earth and we are all accidents of birth. So when a boy recovers in some way from a nasty fall which appears to have damaged his brain then it is still a miracle. The fact that the Catholic Church want to claim it then good luck to them.
solazy
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Steve Wilkes
Posts: 215

Country: UK
Print view this post

Re: Fatima children

#40  Postby Fallible » May 14, 2017 1:01 pm

:drunk:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 50468
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest