God is not complex

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

God is not complex

#1  Postby Clive Durdle » Dec 31, 2013 10:20 am

Not clear where this comes from but I think it deserves a thread! I profoundly disagree!

God is not complex.


Interesting. I thought complexity was like a building block of the universe. It looks to me as if religion is in far more trouble than I thought!

http://www.wolframscience.com/nksonline ... irstview=1

Three centuries ago science was transformed by the dramatic new idea that rules based on mathematical equations could be used to describe the natural world. My purpose in this book is to initiate another such transformation, and to introduce a new kind of science that is based on the much more general types of rules that can be embodied in simple computer programs.
It has taken me the better part of twenty years to build the intellectual structure that is needed, but I have been amazed by its results. For what I have found is that with the new kind of science I have developed it suddenly becomes possible to make progress on a remarkable range of fundamental issues that have never successfully been addressed by any of the existing sciences before.

If theoretical science is to be possible at all, then at some level the systems it studies must follow definite rules. Yet in the past throughout the exact sciences it has usually been assumed that these rules must be ones based on traditional mathematics. But the crucial realization that led me to develop the new kind of science in this book is that there is in fact no reason to think that systems like those we see in nature should follow only such traditional mathematical rules.
Earlier in history it might have been difficult to imagine what more general types of rules could be like. But today we are surrounded...


That complexity could be identified as a coherent phenomenon that could be studied scientifically in its own right was something I began to emphasize around 1984. And having created the beginnings of what I considered to be the necessary intellectual structure, I started to try to develop an organizational structure to allow what I called complex systems research to spread. Some of what I did had fairly immediate effects, but much did not, and by late 1986 I had started building Mathematica and decided to pursue my own scientific interests in a more independent way (see page 20). By the late 1980s, however, there was widespread discussion of what was by then being called complexity theory. (I had avoided this name to prevent confusion with the largely unrelated field of computational complexity theory). And indeed many of the points I had made about the promise of the field were being enthusiastically repeated in popular accounts--and there were starting to be quite a number of new institutions devoted to the field. (A notable example was the Santa Fe Institute, whose orientation towards complexity seems to have been a quite direct consequence of my efforts.)
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: God is not complex

#2  Postby Animavore » Dec 31, 2013 11:49 am

I don't get it Are we supposed to read the book linked?
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 43480
Age: 41
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#3  Postby Greyman » Dec 31, 2013 12:23 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:Not clear where this comes from but I think it deserves a thread! I profoundly disagree!
With ... what exactly?
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit." - T. Tick.
User avatar
Greyman
 
Name: Graham
Posts: 493
Age: 52

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#4  Postby iamthereforeithink » Dec 31, 2013 12:31 pm

So this is a thread titled "God is not complex", posted in the "Christianity" forum, but links to a generic book about complexity that advocates a computational approach to mathematics. Excuse me for a few minutes while I scratch my head. :scratch:
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
User avatar
iamthereforeithink
 
Posts: 3332
Age: 10
Male

Country: USA/ EU
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#5  Postby kennyc » Dec 31, 2013 2:32 pm

Excuse me, but is this the 'Silly Walks' thread?
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Photo Gallery - Writing&Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama
User avatar
kennyc
 
Name: Kenny A. Chaffin
Posts: 8698
Male

Country: U.S.A.
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#6  Postby Clive Durdle » Jan 02, 2014 10:11 pm

Someone - a theist - stated that God is not complex, I can't remember where, thought it was here somewhere but I flick between boards. I got the impression that it is a "new theology" idea that is floating around like a train crash with helium baloons attached.

I was commenting that I profoundly disagree with the idea that God is not complex and thought referencing Wolfram on complexity was a good point to start discussing this.

Is there a category for these types of taking a few words from science, mangling the ideas completely and attaching the series of letters "god is" to things?

Was my train of thought that difficult to follow? :)
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#7  Postby Shrunk » Jan 02, 2014 10:31 pm

I believe the simplicity of God is one of the chief tenets of classical theism, which Mick espouses. So maybe drop him a PM or invite him to this thread.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: God is not complex

#8  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 10:44 pm

The denial of divine complexity is the denial that God is a composite, that he has parts or qualities somehow distinct from his essence. Thus, we say his omniscience is his omnipotence which is his omnipresence, etc.. plantinga thinks this entails that God is a property, I disagree. Dawkins insists that God is complex ifhe created the world; I disagree.

Dunno what the OP is talking about.
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#9  Postby Clive Durdle » Jan 02, 2014 10:56 pm

Well do not use terms like complex if you do not know what they mean! How can you possibly state that God is not complex if you have no understanding of the term complex?

For example

Complexity is a cross-disciplinary journal focusing on the rapidly expanding science of complex adaptive systems.

The journal covers methodological themes as chaos, genetic algorithms, cellular automata, neural networks, and evolutionary game theory. Papers treating applications in any area of natural science or human endeavor are welcome, and especially encouraged are papers integrating conceptual themes and applications that cross traditional disciplinary boundaries.


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1002/(ISSN)1099-0526;jsessionid=1752C392B05AB20C509AF5BD28BE7C77.f01t04

The universe is about systems. Gods need to be defined in relation to those systems, especially if they are creating and sustaining gods.

Simple non complex gods cannot create complex systems! If you state a god is not complex, it is not a creating intervening god!
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#10  Postby Clive Durdle » Jan 02, 2014 10:59 pm

What I understand the quote in the OP is stating is that the universe and everything in it - including us - are derived from very simple rules - no gods anywhere.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#11  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 10:59 pm

Um, the only definiton of complexity there was one about it being a journal.

The idea of divine simplicity and such doesn't seem relevant here.
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#12  Postby Clive Durdle » Jan 02, 2014 11:04 pm

Santa Fe Institute Mission and Vision
Mission

The Santa Fe Institute is a transdisciplinary research community that expands the boundaries of scientific understanding. Its aim is to discover, comprehend, and communicate the common fundamental principles in complex physical, computational, biological, and social systems that underlie many of the most profound problems facing science and society today.

Vision

Many of society’s most pressing problems fall far from the confines of disciplinary research. Complex problems require novel ideas that result from thinking about non-equilibrium and highly connected complex adaptive systems. We are dedicated to developing advanced concepts and methods for these problems, and pursuing solutions at the interfaces between fields through wide-ranging collaborations, conversations, and educational programs. SFI combines expertise in quantitative theory and model building with a community and infrastructure able to support cutting-edge, distributed and team-based science. At the Santa Fe Institute, we are asking big questions that matter to science and society.


http://www.santafe.edu/about/mission-and-vision/

Stating God is not complex is an easily testable statement, making theology a hypothesis that can be shown to be wrong.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#13  Postby Calilasseia » Jan 02, 2014 11:07 pm

Explain to me again how one can possibly know anything substantive about a merely asserted entity?
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22029
Age: 58
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#14  Postby Clive Durdle » Jan 02, 2014 11:13 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Explain to me again how one can possibly know anything substantive about a merely asserted entity?


The denial of divine complexity is the denial that God is a composite, that he has parts or qualities somehow distinct from his essence. Thus, we say his omniscience is his omnipotence which is his omnipresence, etc.. plantinga thinks this entails that God is a property, I disagree. Dawkins insists that God is complex ifhe created the world; I disagree.


I am not stating that we know anything about asserted entities! Theologians - and Mick - are doing this!

I am arguing that this assertion of not complex or of divine simplicity fails, because the definition of complexity I am using is not irrelevant, because it is a structural feature of the universe.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#15  Postby laklak » Jan 02, 2014 11:19 pm

Neither are leprechauns.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 20079
Age: 66
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: God is not complex

#16  Postby Clive Durdle » Jan 02, 2014 11:25 pm

A leprechaun (Irish: leipreachán) is a type of fairy in Irish folklore, usually taking the form of an old man, clad in a red or green coat, who enjoys partaking in mischief.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprechaun

Sorry, they are really complex! :)
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#17  Postby Calilasseia » Jan 02, 2014 11:30 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:Explain to me again how one can possibly know anything substantive about a merely asserted entity?


The denial of divine complexity is the denial that God is a composite, that he has parts or qualities somehow distinct from his essence. Thus, we say his omniscience is his omnipotence which is his omnipresence, etc.. plantinga thinks this entails that God is a property, I disagree. Dawkins insists that God is complex ifhe created the world; I disagree.


I am not stating that we know anything about asserted entities! Theologians - and Mick - are doing this!


I know. That's to whom my question is addressed, though I won't hold my breath waiting for something resembling a substantive answer.

Clive Durdle wrote:I am arguing that this assertion of not complex or of divine simplicity fails, because the definition of complexity I am using is not irrelevant, because it is a structural feature of the universe.


From a first reading of Wolfram's pages, it seems he's arriving at Kolmogorov complexity from a different angle than the usual.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22029
Age: 58
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#18  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 11:57 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Explain to me again how one can possibly know anything substantive about a merely asserted entity?


Conceptual analysis. It doesn't matter if the thing exists or not.
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#19  Postby Calilasseia » Jan 03, 2014 12:04 am

So if enthusiasts for different asserted entities can bring "conceptual analysis" to bear on their asserted entities, it makes those asserted entities as valid as yours, does it?

I'll enjoy seeing the apologetics erected to hand-wave this away.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22029
Age: 58
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: God is not complex

#20  Postby Matthew Shute » Jan 03, 2014 12:10 am

Mick wrote:Thus, we say his omniscience is his omnipotence which is his omnipresence, etc..


They're all conceptually distinct, though. Without some theological humpty-dumptyism, those imagined qualities can't be referred to interchangeably. You can't say "omnipotence" if you want to talk about God's all-knowing, since omnipotence doesn't mean that. You can't say "omnipresence" to refer to omni-benevolence - "being" doesn't mean the same as "being goodness". It's an incoherent wibble to claim they're all one "simple" essence. You might as well say: perfect hottness is perfect tallness is perfect hairiness is perfect shininess.
"Change will preserve us. It is the lifeblood of the Isles. It will move mountains! It will mount movements!" - Sheogorath
User avatar
Matthew Shute
 
Name: Matthew Shute
Posts: 3676
Age: 41

Antarctica (aq)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest