Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: kiore, The_Metatron, Blip

Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#1  Postby Nevets » Mar 14, 2020 8:54 pm

This argument is an offshoot of another thread, where it was claimed by a person, that i assume, ironically does not believe in Jesus, that the Greek language pre-dates it's written records, dating approximately 1500BC, and was instead spread through Oral dialect, with no actual written records.

I personally believe this claim, to either, be almost insignifant in the effect of language evolution, or, just a complete fantasy and fairytale, almost tantamount to Jesus belief.

Here is where it says Greek language evolved from Indo-European, roughly 3,500 years ago, from today

Greek (Modern Greek: ελληνικά, elliniká) is an independent branch of the Indo-European family of languages, native to Greece, Cyprus, Albania and other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea. It has the longest documented history of any living Indo-European language, spanning at least 3,500 years of written records. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language


The Septuagint is the Greek old testament

The Septuagint is the earliest extant Koine Greek translation of books from the Hebrew Bible, various biblical apocrypha, and deuterocanonical books. The first five books of the Hebrew Bible, known as the Torah or the Pentateuch, were translated in the mid-3rd century BCE; they did not survive as original translation texts, however, except as rare fragments. The remaining books of the Greek Old Testament are presumably translations from 200 BCE to 50 CE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint


In legend, it is claimed that the Greek old Testament was written by 72 Hewbrew scholars, each put in to 72 different chambers, without knowing about the presence of eachother, nor, what they were being put in a chamber for, and they were then asked to retranslate their Hewbrew scriptures in to Greek, for Ptolomy, and it is alleged, that all 72 translations corresponded with eachothers.

King Ptolemy once gathered 72 Elders. He placed them in 72 chambers, each of them in a separate one, without revealing to them why they were summoned. He entered each one's room and said: "Write for me the Torah of Moshe, your teacher". God put it in the heart of each one to translate identically as all the others did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint#Jewish_legend


Also, foreseeing the type of argument i will receive, it will likely be along the lines of my source does not state that they were Hebrew scholars. But yes, it does.

According to the legend, seventy-two Jewish scholars were asked by Ptolemy II Philadelphus, the Greek king of Egypt, to translate the Torah from Biblical Hebrew to Greek for inclusion in the Library of Alexandria.[13] This narrative is found in the pseudepigraphic Letter of Aristeas to his brother Philocrates,[14] and is repeated by Philo of Alexandria, Josephus (in Antiquities of the Jews),[15] and by later sources (including Augustine of Hippo).[16] It is also found in the Tractate Megillah of the Babylonian Talmud: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint#Jewish_legend


It is my accusation that to blindly believe that there was a Greek language that predated Greek written records, is tantamount to political latiniasation, and Hermes worship, the Greek God of Language

Hermes was the ancient Greek god of trade, wealth, luck, fertility, animal husbandry, sleep, language, thieves, and travel https://www.ancient.eu/Hermes/


Now, my challenge to those that "believe" the Greeks had a language that is not recorded, pre 2000BC, is to come out and "prove" this, otherwise the belief seems to be equally as big a fairytale as actual Septuagint & Jesus belief.
Last edited by Nevets on Mar 14, 2020 9:52 pm, edited 7 times in total.
User avatar
Nevets
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: steven gall
Posts: 368

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#2  Postby Fallible » Mar 14, 2020 9:01 pm

Do feel free to shut your pie hole whenever you like.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 48
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#3  Postby campermon » Mar 14, 2020 9:18 pm

Ooh! Retsina anybody?

:cheers:
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
User avatar
campermon
RS Donator
 
Posts: 17438
Age: 51
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#4  Postby Svartalf » Mar 14, 2020 9:42 pm

I'll have a whole bottle, gonna need it, and maybe its twelve sisters too
PC stands for Patronizing Cocksucker Randy Ping

Embrace the Dark Side, it needs a hug
User avatar
Svartalf
 
Posts: 2435
Age: 52
Male

Country: France
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 14, 2020 10:05 pm

Nevets wrote:This argument is an offshoot of another thread, where it was claimed by a person, that i assume, ironically does not believe in Jesus, that the Greek language pre-dates it's written records, dating approximately 1500BC, and was instead spread through Oral dialect, with no actual written records.

Since this one big fat lie, a product purely from your rectum, the rest of your post is completely pointless. :naughty:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31091
Age: 32
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#6  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 14, 2020 10:07 pm

Nevets, have you confused us with somewhere else?

What exists to motivate anyone here to "prove" anything to you, let alone whatever random bullshit you find on Wiki? We are well aware there are things wrong on the internet.

Get yourself a wiki account and fix that shit, if it means so much to you.
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 21281
Age: 58
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#7  Postby Nevets » Mar 14, 2020 10:59 pm

The_Metatron wrote:Nevets, have you confused us with somewhere else?

What exists to motivate anyone here to "prove" anything to you, let alone whatever random bullshit you find on Wiki? We are well aware there are things wrong on the internet.

Get yourself a wiki account and fix that shit, if it means so much to you.


But Wiki was being kind.
It said Greek language began in 1500BC

Britannica encyclopedia says it was an Indo-european language that arrived 14th Century BC. Though, that perhaps is the samething, pretty much.

Greek language, Indo-European language spoken primarily in Greece. It has a long and well-documented history—the longest of any Indo-European language—spanning 34 centuries. There is an Ancient phase, subdivided into a Mycenaean period (texts in syllabic script attested from the 14th to the 13th century BCE) and Archaic and Classical periods (beginning with the adoption of the alphabet, from the 8th to the 4th century BCE); a Hellenistic and Roman phase (4th century BCE to 4th century CE); a Byzantine phase (5th to 15th century CE); and a Modern phase. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Greek-language


So yes, i think if Jesus believers, or Hermes believers, want to believe in myths and legends, the onus is on them to prove it, not me
Last edited by Nevets on Mar 14, 2020 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Nevets
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: steven gall
Posts: 368

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#8  Postby Fallible » Mar 14, 2020 10:59 pm

:yawn:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 48
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#9  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 14, 2020 11:10 pm

Nevets wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
The_Metatron wrote:Nevets, have you confused us with somewhere else?

What exists to motivate anyone here to "prove" anything to you, let alone whatever random bullshit you find on Wiki? We are well aware there are things wrong on the internet.

Get yourself a wiki account and fix that shit, if it means so much to you.


But Wiki was being kind.
It said Greek language began in 1500BC

Britannica encyclopedia says it was an Indo-european language that arrived 14th Century BC. Though, that perhaps is the samething, pretty much.

Greek language, Indo-European language spoken primarily in Greece. It has a long and well-documented history—the longest of any Indo-European language—spanning 34 centuries. There is an Ancient phase, subdivided into a Mycenaean period (texts in syllabic script attested from the 14th to the 13th century BCE) and Archaic and Classical periods (beginning with the adoption of the alphabet, from the 8th to the 4th century BCE); a Hellenistic and Roman phase (4th century BCE to 4th century CE); a Byzantine phase (5th to 15th century CE); and a Modern phase. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Greek-language

So yes, i think if Jesus believers, or Hermes believers, want to believe in myths and legends, the onus is on them to prove it, not me


Once again, have you confused this place with another?
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 21281
Age: 58
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#10  Postby Nevets » Mar 14, 2020 11:30 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Since this one big fat lie, a product purely from your rectum, the rest of your post is completely pointless. :naughty:


No, it is not a big fat lie.
I did not name you in person.

But

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/relig ... l#p2737395
Thomas Eshuis wrote:There's only one mention of 3500 in that part and as I already pointed out to you it refers to Greek written sources not the existence of I-E in Greece.


In response to my belief in Thor, even though i explained, my use of Thor, is purely metaphorical for Germanic and Aryan and Indo-european language, you argued against every thing, until eventually making a statement that implied, Greek language only being recorded up to 1500BC is not proof that there was no Greek language before then, as it was passed down orally.
And this was an attempt to remove the academic knowledge that Greek language is a sub-branch of Indo-european

Now i am being asked to provide citation for you? This was not my claim.


Thomas Eshuis wrote:

They establish that Greek WRITTEN sources, no I-E language, go back 3500 years.
Do you not understand Nevets? :naughty:


Yes, i understand Thomas.
But, i would imagine an oral tradition to have no major role in the overall role of global language evolution, enough to debunk the Academic belief that Indo-European was the Proto tongue of Greek.
And i certainly do not accept folklore, legend, or myth, as Academic fact.
That is exactly what you brought to the table on the Thor thread, when you attempted to debunk the Academic claim, using unfounded Mythology.
User avatar
Nevets
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: steven gall
Posts: 368

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 15, 2020 3:18 am

I am bored with this guys lying and trolling - when you going to get round to dealing with him mods?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 28964
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#12  Postby laklak » Mar 15, 2020 3:22 am

Huh?
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 20878
Age: 67
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 15, 2020 4:36 am

Now, my challenge to those that "believe" the Greeks had a language that is not recorded, pre 2000BC, is to come out and "prove" this, otherwise the belief seems to be equally as big a fairytale as actual Septuagint & Jesus belief.


So the people living in modern-day Greece prior to 2000 B.C. were mute?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 28964
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#14  Postby Nevets » Mar 15, 2020 5:26 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Now, my challenge to those that "believe" the Greeks had a language that is not recorded, pre 2000BC, is to come out and "prove" this, otherwise the belief seems to be equally as big a fairytale as actual Septuagint & Jesus belief.


So the people living in modern-day Greece prior to 2000 B.C. were mute?


No, they were originally of the Proto-Indo-European language. In the late Neolithic.

Proto-Greek was originally a dialect of the Proto-Indo-European language. In the late Neolithic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language


Do you have any reason to believe this is wrong? Or any evidence to the contrary?
User avatar
Nevets
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: steven gall
Posts: 368

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#15  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 15, 2020 7:54 am

Image
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 28964
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#16  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 15, 2020 8:13 am

Nevets wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Since this one big fat lie, a product purely from your rectum, the rest of your post is completely pointless. :naughty:


No, it is not a big fat lie.
I did not name you in person.

You did when you announced the creation of this thread in the thread about Thor. :naughty:

Nevets wrote:
But

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/religions-belief/the-real-history-of-thor-t56546-160.html#p2737395
Thomas Eshuis wrote:There's only one mention of 3500 in that part and as I already pointed out to you it refers to Greek written sources not the existence of I-E in Greece.


In response to my belief in Thor, even though i explained, my use of Thor, is purely metaphorical for Germanic and Aryan and Indo-european language, you argued against every thing, until eventually making a statement that implied, Greek language only being recorded up to 1500BC is not proof that there was no Greek language before then, as it was passed down orally.
And this was an attempt to remove the academic knowledge that Greek language is a sub-branch of Indo-european

Now i am being asked to provide citation for you? This was not my claim.

Correct. Nor does it claim what you counter-factually assert it claims.
But thank you for demonstrating your dishonest straw-man yourself.

Nevets wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:

They establish that Greek WRITTEN sources, no I-E language, go back 3500 years.
Do you not understand Nevets? :naughty:


Yes, i understand Thomas.
But, i would imagine an oral tradition to have no major role in the overall role of global language evolution, enough to debunk the Academic belief that Indo-European was the Proto tongue of Greek.

Nope, still not interested in your fantasies Nevets.

Nevets wrote:And i certainly do not accept folklore, legend, or myth, as Academic fact.

1. There's no such thing as academic fact. There's just facts.
2. Since I made no mention of folklore et al, this is dishonest straw-man #987676.

Nevets wrote:
That is exactly what you brought to the table on the Thor thread, when you attempted to debunk the Academic claim, using unfounded Mythology.

Stop lying Nevets. :coffee:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31091
Age: 32
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#17  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 15, 2020 8:14 am

Nevets wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Now, my challenge to those that "believe" the Greeks had a language that is not recorded, pre 2000BC, is to come out and "prove" this, otherwise the belief seems to be equally as big a fairytale as actual Septuagint & Jesus belief.


So the people living in modern-day Greece prior to 2000 B.C. were mute?


No, they were originally of the Proto-Indo-European language. In the late Neolithic.

Proto-Greek was originally a dialect of the Proto-Indo-European language. In the late Neolithic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language


Do you have any reason to believe this is wrong? Or any evidence to the contrary?
[/quote]
:picard:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31091
Age: 32
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#18  Postby Nevets » Mar 15, 2020 9:38 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Nevets wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Now, my challenge to those that "believe" the Greeks had a language that is not recorded, pre 2000BC, is to come out and "prove" this, otherwise the belief seems to be equally as big a fairytale as actual Septuagint & Jesus belief.


So the people living in modern-day Greece prior to 2000 B.C. were mute?


No, they were originally of the Proto-Indo-European language. In the late Neolithic.

Proto-Greek was originally a dialect of the Proto-Indo-European language. In the late Neolithic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language


Do you have any reason to believe this is wrong? Or any evidence to the contrary?

:picard:[/quote]

So it derives from languages that derived from Indo-european.
User avatar
Nevets
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: steven gall
Posts: 368

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#19  Postby Nevets » Mar 15, 2020 9:41 am

5000 BC for Graeco-Armenian or proto Graeco-Aryan split, and the emergence of Greek and Armenian as separate linguistic lineages around 4000 BC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language
User avatar
Nevets
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: steven gall
Posts: 368

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Greek antiquity and the Septuagint

#20  Postby Nevets » Mar 15, 2020 9:58 am

Graeco-Aryan, or Graeco-Armeno-Aryan, is a hypothetical clade within the Indo-European family that would be the ancestor of Greek, Armenian, and the Indo-Iranian languages.

The Graeco-Armeno-Aryan group supposedly branched off from the parent Indo-European stem by the mid-3rd millennium BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
User avatar
Nevets
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: steven gall
Posts: 368

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest