Well, aspects of Luke-Acts are tied to aspects of Josephus

RealityRules wrote:Well, aspects of Luke-Acts are tied to aspects of Josephus

True - it looks like the authors of gLuke were familiar with Josephus, and apparently the pious fraud who wrote the TF was familiar with chapter 24 of gLuke.

proudfootz wrote:

Stein wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

Stein wrote:

Galatians 4:4

Romans 1:3

Galatians 1:19

1 Corinthians 9:5

Phillipians 2:7

1 Corinthians 2:8

1 Thessalonians 2:15

1 Corinthians 15:3

1 Corinthians 7:10

Galatians 1:18

1 Corinthians 11:23

Nope. No bible quotes around here...

What a fucking slimy way of avoiding YOUR LIE. YOU SAID I DID WALL-TO-WALL BIBLE QUOTES IN MY RESPONSE TO MOONWATCHER. THAT'S A FUCKING LIE. JOSEPHUS IS

N O T

THE BIBLE.

Try another, slimeball.

Stein

So all the shit from the Gospel of Luke and Paul's epistles isn't in the bible?

3:7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

3:16b I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone.
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

15:4 [Jesus said,] What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

6:17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases.

6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.
2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.
3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.
19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

11:14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.
15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

13:18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and was a tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

11:16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

12:54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

14:26 If any man come to me, and scorn not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

12:22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, [Lord,] We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.

11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

14:16b A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

11:39b Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.

12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.



Jesus quotes in Paul's 1 Corinthians


7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.

9:14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

11:23 The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post2 ... e#p2311800

Why do you lie?

It's in every fucking bible ever printed.

The HJ movement would have an easier time of it without you making them look like dishonest jerks in this thread.

YOU jerk. You know FUCKING GOD DAMN WELL I INCLUDED JOSEPHUS QUOTES IN THERE. THE WHOLE GOD DAMN BOARD KNOWS THAT. THE WHOLE GOD DAMN BOARD SAW MY POST. JOSEPHUS IS

N O T

THE BIBLE, AND EVERYONE HERE FUCKING WELL KNOWS THAT.

You ARE a fucking slimeball.

YOU are shifting the goddamn goal posts. YOU fucking know you started out by dismissing my post as wall-to-wall bible quotes -- AND MY POST FUCKING WELL WASN'T THAT. So now you pretend you were just saying that I incluuuuuuuuuuded Bible quotes instead. That's so fucking

N O T

what you were saying. You said it was Bible wall-to-wall. That's. What. You. Said. Now, there WERE Josephus quotes in there -- AND JOSEPHUS IS

N O T

THE FUCKING BIBLE. So my post to Moonwatcher was

N O T

Bible quotes wall-to-wall, and you are a fucking goddamn liar, no matter how many slimeball ways you try to get out of it and change the goddamn record of what YOU first said.

I know fucking well that 1.2.m. doesn't count for shit here any more. And you fucking well know that too, don't you? So you fucking know you can get away with any amount of blatant misrepresentation and the mods won't do shit about it. You fucking know you can get away with making up

D E L I B E R A T E

lies about HJ-ers' posts just for the glee of triggering shit fits from HJ-ers, when YOU are just as much to fucking blame for the shit fits as the HJ-ers THAT YOU

D E L I B E R A T E L Y

PROVOKE.

It's a filthy shitty rotten game you're playing, and you fucking well know that, AND IT'S FOUNDED ON LIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEESS!!!

Stein

proudfootz wrote:

Stein wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

Still dodging the question?

Why is this so fucking hard?

Oh, for crying out loud. A historical Jesus would be a HUMAN activist in the Jewish community of Rome-occupied Palestine who gathered followers and got himself nailed by the occupation.

Duh,

Stein

See? Not so hard to actually answer the fucking question.

-- And I already fucking answered the question before this, so I DIDN'T fucking avoid it --


"Obviously, what all those quotes I provided really help assemble is an historical Jesus who is more a wise man than a fucking magician, a guy who has ordinary members of an ordinary family whose mother had more than one kid, a convicted troublemaker who was a victim of Roman "law", a folk healer, a devout Jewish rabbi who was not out to destroy Judaism but to reform it and a guy whose life ENDED with a Roman crucifixion because HE WAS AN ORDINARY HUMAN SCHMO."


That's addressing directly just what is more likely historical AND what is more likely NOT historical. So fucking there, pal. And you have evidently decided never to address the main point --


"The significant fact that these are the ONLY elements that both the non-apologetics and the apologetics happen to HAVE IN FUCKING COMMON is routinely ignored by fanatics like Dejuror and Proudfootz who respond every time I put together such an assemblage with LIES ABOUT "ARBITRARY CHOICES" OF THE MUNDANE INGREDIENTS. There is nothing fucking arbitrary about it. It's not me who "extracts" these mundane ingredients: It's the consilience of apologetics and non-apologetics that agree on very fucking little but DO AGREE IN LEAVING

O N L Y

THESE MUNDANE INGREDIENTS STILL STANDING! That's fucking why the agreement of the apologetics and the non-apologetics on VERY FUCKING LITTLE is fucking relevant here. The disagreement on detail after detail among the apologetics and the non-apologetics makes their mingy agreements on highly selective ingredients ANYWAY that much more fucking relevant. This highly restricted area of agreement and its contextual significance is the aspect that every single myther routinely ignores, in the process fucking distorting if not fucking lying about the point I've made here again and again and again and again and fucking again."


You can address this point NOW -- you can stop avoiding it -- or reveal yourself as nothing but a goddamn troll.

Stein

RealityRules wrote:
I was mainly referring to recent views that the synoptic gospels having arisen out of Marcionism -

Joseph B Tyson (2006) Marcion and Luke-Acts: a defining struggle (University of South Carolina Press) makes a case for not only Luke but also Acts being a response to Marcion, rather than Marcion's gospel being a rewrite of Luke.

Matthias Klinghardt (2008) 'The Marcionite Gospel and the Synoptic Problem: A New Suggestion' Novum Testamentum; 50(1):1-27. argues that the gospel used by Marcion is not a redaction of Luke, but rather precedes Matthew and Luke.

Vincent M (2014) 'Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels' (Studia patristica supplement 2, Leuven: Peeters) evaluates our commonly known arguments for dating the Synoptic Gospels, elaborates on Marcion's crucial role in the Gospel making, and argues for a re-dating of all the Gospels to the years between 138 and 144 AD.

I maintained from well before 2000, RR, that the Gospel of Luke is in the main a re-write of Marcion’s gospel, mentioning as much here only recently. Detailed analysis demonstrates as much, apart from which Marcion’s is much the shorter, its narrative more natural than that of Luke. The latter’s compiler seems also to have had access to some even older manuscripts than what Marcion possessed.

There’s furthermore good reason to believe that gLuke was the first of the canonical gospels (dejuror will be overjoyed!) – probable both by internal evidence and the necessity to counteract Marcion’s influence.

I don’t accept that the composer of gLuke and Acts are one and the same person, but do agree that the latter, written in the interest of the orthodox hierarchy, in part at least, is a response to Marcion’s NT. (It’s of course also meant to reconcile Peter with Paul, bestow primacy on Peter, and so forth.)

I can’t agree that the gospels ought to be re-dated to between 138 and 144: between 170 and say 185 seems much more probable.

The introduction to the Gospel of Luke expressly states that many gospels had been written prior. (“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order …”)

Origen deemed the Gospel of the Egyptians and the Gospel of the Twelve Apostles (Gospel of the Hebrews) to have been two of those preceding writings. Jerome adds the Gospel of Thomas, Matthias, Bartholomew, Basilides, and that of Apelles; Epiphanius adds that of Cerinthus, Merinthus, “and others”, others add the Acts of Pilate (Gospel of Nicodemus).

Apelles wrote around 160 AD, so, at least according to Jerome, the Gospel of Luke arrived after 160. Cerinthus wrote around 145 AD, which again seems to negate the 138 to 144 range.

I thought you were linking to Paul’s scribbling to the Marcionite Church! Perish the thought!

Thanks for mentioning those books by the way.

RealityRules wrote:Well, aspects of Luke-Acts are tied to aspects of Josephus

And then some!

The NT borrows copiously from Josephus, his writing some of the most treasured relics of the Catholic Church.

dejuror wrote:
Your statement is most absurd. The argument in "Against Heresies" that Jesus was ALIVE up to 20 years AFTER the 15th year of Tiberius is a major historical discrepancy especially when it is claimed that Irenaeus was a Presbyter and Bishop of the CHURCH.

In effect you want Irenaeus’ argument to not only tally with the gospels in respect of Jesus’ crucifixion under the reign of Pilate, but also where a twenty year ministry is concerned, and, on top of that, you want it to be in agreement with the Gospel of Luke’s specific assertion as to when the thirty-year-old Jesus was baptized – all assuming, of course, we’re not being led astray somewhere, particularly where gLuke is concerned, or stumped altogether, by translation, interpolation, or calendar problems.

You’re expecting a bit much from poor Irenaeus! Much or most of the time the gospels don't even agree with each other!

You assert: “IN ALL the FOUR Gospels Jesus is DEAD and BURIED in the time of Pilate. PILATE delivered the DEAD BODY of Jesus to Joseph in ALL FOUR GOSPELS. The writings attributed to Tertullian specifically place the death of Jesus in the time of Pontius Pilate.”

You’re fast losing me! I stated the same throughout! I wasn’t aware I had claimed/assumed/implied at any point whatsoever anything different!

I'm now done with this issue, dejuror.

Mike S wrote:

I maintained from well before 2000, RR, that the Gospel of Luke is in the main a re-write of Marcion’s gospel, mentioning as much here only recently. Detailed analysis demonstrates as much, apart from which Marcion’s is much the shorter, its narrative more natural than that of Luke. The latter’s compiler seems also to have had access to some even older manuscripts than what Marcion possessed.

Your post is un-evidenced speculation.

Based on writings attributed to Justin Martyr, a contemporary of Marcion, it is claimed he [Marcion] preached Blasphemy.

First Apology attributed to Justin

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator.

And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works.

Marcion wrote NO Gospel story of Jesus similar to gLuke.

Marcion wrote about ANOTHER GOD and ANOTHER SON.


First Apology attributed to Marcion

And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son.

And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us...

Mike S wrote:There’s furthermore good reason to believe that gLuke was the first of the canonical gospels (dejuror will be overjoyed!) – probable both by internal evidence and the necessity to counteract Marcion’s influence.

What??

gLuke contains ALL LATER EMBELLISHMENTS not found in the short gMark.

The Conception by a Ghost, the Sermon on the Plain, the Great Commission and the Ascension of the Resurrected Jesus are all LATER inventions.

The version of the Jesus story in gLuke is later and more embellished than the version of the story in the short gMark.

Mike S wrote:I don’t accept that the composer of gLuke and Acts are one and the same person, but do agree that the latter, written in the interest of the orthodox hierarchy, in part at least, is a response to Marcion’s NT. (It’s of course also meant to reconcile Peter with Paul, bestow primacy on Peter, and so forth.)

In all versions of the Jesus myth/fiction fables Peter is a disciple of Jesus when he was supposedly on earth.

The Pauline writings claim Paul was a PERSECUTOR of the Faith and the Church of Christ.

The Pauline writer even claimed he was LAST to be seen of the resurrected Jesus.

It is just illogical that Paul the PERSECUTOR in the myth/fables called the NT had PRIMACY over the supposed followers of Jesus.

MS2 wrote:
If he existed I think he was a Jew gathering other Jews around him in order to promote what he saw as the 'true judaism'. Not unlike what countless other charismatic, self-professed religious reformers have done countless times throughout history.

And what if he didn't exist?

What you speculate about Jesus in the NT is of no historical value.

Jesus in the NT was a not a charismatic man but was born of a Ghost.

It is logically fallacious to assume a character which was born of a Ghost was really human because of "countless charismatics".

Romulus of Rome was a myth/fiction character even though it is claimed there are countless figures of history.

dejuror wrote:
Your statement is most absurd. The argument in "Against Heresies" that Jesus was ALIVE up to 20 years AFTER the 15th year of Tiberius is a major historical discrepancy especially when it is claimed that Irenaeus was a Presbyter and Bishop of the CHURCH.

Mike S wrote:
In effect you want Irenaeus’ argument to not only tally with the gospels in respect of Jesus’ crucifixion under the reign of Pilate, but also where a twenty year ministry is concerned, and, on top of that, you want it to be in agreement with the Gospel of Luke’s specific assertion as to when the thirty-year-old Jesus was baptized – all assuming, of course, we’re not being led astray somewhere, particularly where gLuke is concerned, or stumped altogether, by translation, interpolation, or calendar problems.

You’re expecting a bit much from poor Irenaeus! Much or most of the time the gospels don't even agree with each other!

Your post is just bizarre. You conveniently use the same writings of "poor Irenaeus" as credible information about Hegesippus.

You forget that the supposed "poor Irenaeus" was a PRESBYTER and BISHOP of the CHURCH.

Nobody in the Church of Lyons knew when THEIR Jesus died??

Writings attributed to Justin Martyr agree with the Gospels that Jesus was crucified at about 30 years of age under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius and there is NO claim Justin was a Bishop of the Church.

Mike S wrote:You assert: “IN ALL the FOUR Gospels Jesus is DEAD and BURIED in the time of Pilate. PILATE delivered the DEAD BODY of Jesus to Joseph in ALL FOUR GOSPELS. The writings attributed to Tertullian specifically place the death of Jesus in the time of Pontius Pilate.”

You’re fast losing me! I stated the same throughout! I wasn’t aware I had claimed/assumed/implied at any point whatsoever anything different!

I'm now done with this issue, dejuror.

You must be done.

You just claimed that I expected too much from Irenaeus when it is quite a simple task to look in the Gospels and read that Jesus was dead in the time of Pilate.

In the very FOUR Gospels mentioned in "Against Heresies" Pilate gave the DEAD BODY of Jesus to Joseph.

In the very Pauline Corpus, the Pauline writer implied he preached Christ crucified since the time of King Aretas.

It is clear that Against Heresies is NOT credible.

"Against Heresies" MUST be the product of MULTIPLE authors.

One author did NOT know the Jesus stories in the FOUR Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus.

dejuror wrote:
Marcion wrote NO Gospel story of Jesus similar to gLuke.

I wrote this post before I’d read your last Irenaeus one above, and now I wish I hadn’t even troubled to write this one!

The mere fact that almost every word of Marcion also appears in Luke’s gospel (which promptly demolishes your assertion that “Marcion wrote NO Gospel story of Jesus similar to gLuke”), besides additional material, already suggests strongly that that the latter had in front him the whole of Marcion’s gospel, together with other manuscripts.

Marcion had also composed his gospel carefully from the most ancient manuscripts he could lay his hands on, leaving church authority little room but to use much of the same material.

Luke’s many additions were in accord with what was then common practice, apart from which it was necessary to have a gospel different from that of Marcion, a renowned heretic. Furthermore, there’s scant evidence that Marcion had any knowledge at all of the canonical gospels.

The first couple of Luke’s chapters were absent in the earliest gospels, including in the early Gospel of the Hebrews (same as Nazarenes, Ebionites, Twelve Apostles), as well as the Marcion’s work, appearing first in the Protevangelion (Book of James).

As mentioned previously, Marcion’s gospel is more natural, both expression-wise and the way it’s arranged, good evidence in itself of priority.

The Gospel of Mark basically follows the same order as Luke’s gospel, in which the manuscripts were compiled out of their natural order, suggesting that Mark’s author had the whole of gLuke before him.

Spout all the bizarre, repetitive, non sequitur nonsense you like, dejuror - I won’t be responding to it. In fact, with you present in this forum, it seems almost impossible to have any sort of reasonable exchange here at all!

Stein wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

Stein wrote:

proudfootz wrote:


Nope. No bible quotes around here...

What a fucking slimy way of avoiding YOUR LIE. YOU SAID I DID WALL-TO-WALL BIBLE QUOTES IN MY RESPONSE TO MOONWATCHER. THAT'S A FUCKING LIE. JOSEPHUS IS

N O T

THE BIBLE.

Try another, slimeball.

Stein

So all the shit from the Gospel of Luke and Paul's epistles isn't in the bible?

3:7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

3:16b I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone.
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

15:4 [Jesus said,] What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

6:17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases.

6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.
2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.
3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.
19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

11:14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.
15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

13:18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and was a tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

11:16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

12:54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

14:26 If any man come to me, and scorn not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

12:22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, [Lord,] We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.

11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

14:16b A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

11:39b Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.

12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.



Jesus quotes in Paul's 1 Corinthians


7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.

9:14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

11:23 The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post2 ... e#p2311800

Why do you lie?

It's in every fucking bible ever printed.

The HJ movement would have an easier time of it without you making them look like dishonest jerks in this thread.

YOU jerk. You know FUCKING GOD DAMN WELL I INCLUDED JOSEPHUS QUOTES IN THERE. THE WHOLE GOD DAMN BOARD KNOWS THAT. THE WHOLE GOD DAMN BOARD SAW MY POST. JOSEPHUS IS

N O T

THE BIBLE, AND EVERYONE HERE FUCKING WELL KNOWS THAT.

You ARE a fucking slimeball.

YOU are shifting the goddamn goal posts. YOU fucking know you started out by dismissing my post as wall-to-wall bible quotes -- AND MY POST FUCKING WELL WASN'T THAT. So now you pretend you were just saying that I incluuuuuuuuuuded Bible quotes instead. That's so fucking

N O T

what you were saying. You said it was Bible wall-to-wall. That's. What. You. Said. Now, there WERE Josephus quotes in there -- AND JOSEPHUS IS

N O T

THE FUCKING BIBLE. So my post to Moonwatcher was

N O T

Bible quotes wall-to-wall, and you are a fucking goddamn liar, no matter how many slimeball ways you try to get out of it and change the goddamn record of what YOU first said.

I know fucking well that 1.2.m. doesn't count for shit here any more. And you fucking well know that too, don't you? So you fucking know you can get away with any amount of blatant misrepresentation and the mods won't do shit about it. You fucking know you can get away with making up

D E L I B E R A T E

lies about HJ-ers' posts just for the glee of triggering shit fits from HJ-ers, when YOU are just as much to fucking blame for the shit fits as the HJ-ers THAT YOU

D E L I B E R A T E L Y

PROVOKE.

It's a filthy shitty rotten game you're playing, and you fucking well know that, AND IT'S FOUNDED ON LIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEESS!!!

Stein

The sad fact is, that the concept of 'wall to wall bible quotes' is something you introduced - I never said any such thing.

You have a bad habit of reading stuff into texts which aren't there.

Get the log out of your own eye before you start shrieking and moaning about the dust mote in anyone else's eye.

Stein wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

Stein wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

Still dodging the question?

Why is this so fucking hard?

Oh, for crying out loud. A historical Jesus would be a HUMAN activist in the Jewish community of Rome-occupied Palestine who gathered followers and got himself nailed by the occupation.

Duh,

Stein

See? Not so hard to actually answer the fucking question.

-- And I already fucking answered the question before this, so I DIDN'T fucking avoid it --


"Obviously, what all those quotes I provided really help assemble is an historical Jesus who is more a wise man than a fucking magician, a guy who has ordinary members of an ordinary family whose mother had more than one kid, a convicted troublemaker who was a victim of Roman "law", a folk healer, a devout Jewish rabbi who was not out to destroy Judaism but to reform it and a guy whose life ENDED with a Roman crucifixion because HE WAS AN ORDINARY HUMAN SCHMO."


That's addressing directly just what is more likely historical AND what is more likely NOT historical. So fucking there, pal. And you have evidently decided never to address the main point --


"The significant fact that these are the ONLY elements that both the non-apologetics and the apologetics happen to HAVE IN FUCKING COMMON is routinely ignored by fanatics like Dejuror and Proudfootz who respond every time I put together such an assemblage with LIES ABOUT "ARBITRARY CHOICES" OF THE MUNDANE INGREDIENTS. There is nothing fucking arbitrary about it. It's not me who "extracts" these mundane ingredients: It's the consilience of apologetics and non-apologetics that agree on very fucking little but DO AGREE IN LEAVING

O N L Y

THESE MUNDANE INGREDIENTS STILL STANDING! That's fucking why the agreement of the apologetics and the non-apologetics on VERY FUCKING LITTLE is fucking relevant here. The disagreement on detail after detail among the apologetics and the non-apologetics makes their mingy agreements on highly selective ingredients ANYWAY that much more fucking relevant. This highly restricted area of agreement and its contextual significance is the aspect that every single myther routinely ignores, in the process fucking distorting if not fucking lying about the point I've made here again and again and again and again and fucking again."


You can address this point NOW -- you can stop avoiding it -- or reveal yourself as nothing but a goddamn troll.

Stein

There's a big difference between copy/pasting all the literature which you think is evidence supporting your contention there was indeed a man who fits the bill of an 'historical Jesus' and the definition of what would constitute an 'historic Jesus'.

You do your cause little good by proving again and again and again and again and fucking again your apparent inability to understand simplest ideas presented in your own native language.

As for your assertion that your ability to force some sort of 'harmony' among a variety of texts by massively redacting them is some astounding feat... Color me rather less than impressed.

I don't support Stein's posting style, but it's pathetic that you take such pleasure out of misrepresenting and twisting what he says, knowing you will get a rise out of him. Your posting style when responding to or writing about him is at the level of the playground bully.

MS2 wrote:I don't support Stein's posting style, but it's pathetic that you take such pleasure out of misrepresenting and twisting what he says, knowing you will get a rise out of him. Your posting style when responding to or writing about him is at the level of the playground bully.

It is evident that Stein's HJ argument is totally bankrupt.

Stein actively uses the myth/fiction fables of the Logos [God Creator] and the Son of a Ghost as credible historical sources.

The HJ argument is and ALWAYS was derived from "F" words---[fallacies, forgeries, falsehood, fiction and false attribution]

Now, that you have admitted that you don't even support Stein's posting style then his HJ argument is effectively dead.

As expected, after years of posting those who argue for an HJ have not been able to present any historical data for Jesus of Nazareth.

Everybody knows that there is NO character called Jesus of Nazareth OUTSIDE the Bible and Apologetics.

Writings attributed to Philo, Josephus, Pliny the Elder, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the younger and the Dead Sea Scrolls did not acknowledge any character called Jesus of Nazareth.

Up to the 4th century, in writings attributed to Julian the Emperor, it is implied that NO well-known writer mentioned Jesus and Paul.

Jesus of Nazareth was ALWAYS a fiction character.

Jesus of Nazareth NEVER EVER had any real existence.

Against the Galileans

But if you can show me that one of these men is mentioned by the well-known writers of that time,----these events happened in the reign of Tiberius or Claudius,----then you may consider that I speak falsely about all matters.

Jesus of Nazareth NEVER EVER had any history up to at least 362 CEor up to the writing of "Against the Galileans."


Against the Galileans

It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish, it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth.

I argue that Jesus of Nazareth [the Galilean] is a childish foolish FICTION of men.

Now, examine the NT. Examine the Gospels. Examine Acts and the Pauline Corpus. Examine the Epistles and Revelation

The stories of Jesus are INDEED childish foolish Fiction.

MS2 wrote:I don't support Stein's posting style, but it's pathetic that you take such pleasure out of misrepresenting and twisting what he says, knowing you will get a rise out of him. Your posting style when responding to or writing about him is at the level of the playground bully.

What's to misrepresent? Stein is typical of a committed believer that gets worked up about Jesus, and he simply wants everyone to believe as he does. Posters here that think for themselves are not going to commit.

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

I have no way of knowing whether Jesus was an historical figure or not and as time goes on I find it more difficult to give a shit either way. I do know that religions cannot exist for long without written texts and Christianity has its fare share of written texts insuring a long life, and that these texts are of a godman that performed miracles. When and why did it become necessarily so for this Jesus Christ to become historical?

proudfootz wrote:

As for your assertion that your ability to force some sort of 'harmony' among a variety of texts by massively redacting them is some astounding feat... Color me rather less than impressed.

This is the only remark of yours that's even remotely on point. Contrary to what you -- pathetically predictably -- say, it happens to be a perfectly respectable process to ascertain where a plethora of unrelated sources align. Modern professional historians do that all the time. I should know. My father was one, for crying out loud, and also an atheist like my entire family. So grow up.

Non-apologetics and apologetics happen to align here on very little. But they do align on two or three very basic facts. There was definitely some sort of teacher in Tiberian Palestine who was a Jew and a folk healer, who made things uncomfortable for the Roman occupation and who gathered a bit of a following. He had some pretensions to a philosophy of a sort and he was executed by the Roman authorities. That's all.

Now, no myther has given here an adequate explanation as to how come the apologetics and the non-apologetics, which do NOT align on any of the posthumous woo, DO agree on those basics. I know by now that your doctrine forbids you even to address that, let alone attempt to account for it. To do that would violate your fraternity oath. The same goes for other fanatics here like Dejuror. But once in a great while, a genuine agnostic on the question, like Moonwatcher, rather than a fake agnostic like Reality Rules, will address this, though not too often.

What you are effectively doing here is PENALIZING ME HERE FOR EVEN DARING TO FUCKING ADDRESS MOONWATCHER'S QUESTION in the first place BY PUTTING GODDAMN WORDS IN MY MOUTH. Why, how DAAAAAAARE I?

Moonwatcher asked --

"Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale."

-- to which I have the sheer effrontery to respond that all the unrelated sources only align on A, B, and C, but not D, E, & F. Moonwatcher made a point of using the words "who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" as characterizing one extreme, clearly implying that those who ascribe considerably less than 90% to this rabbi were also being asked his same question. I fall a lot lower than 90% because of modern textual analysis of the very apparent differences in the various philological styles found in the Synoptics and elsewhere, like the authentic Paulines. I also add to that a further discrimination when applying the fragmentary testimony of non-apologetics like Josephus and Tacitus. It is a combination of both processes which yields the results that I gave in my so fucking criminal response to Moonwatcher. So cry me a river.

I gave a detailed rundown of which textual nuggets I now view as MOST LIKELY to be historical. I have no idea precisely how much of a percentage of "the non-magical stuff and most of the stuff attributed to him" is found in the textual nuggets I provided in my long posting. Maybe it was roughly 33%. I'm not sure; I haven't calculated it. BUT MY LONG POST

W A S

ANSWERING MOONWATCHER'S GODDAMN QUESTION, thank you very fucking much.

That's my fucking crime, and that's my fucking response.

Well, you can choke on that. I'm not stopping you.

Stein

MS2 wrote:I don't support Stein's posting style, but it's pathetic that you take such pleasure out of misrepresenting and twisting what he says, knowing you will get a rise out of him. Your posting style when responding to or writing about him is at the level of the playground bully.

Thanks for saying that. Appreciate it. -- You also have no call to support my latest meltdowns, of course.

I also know it will be a cold day in hell before PF responds directly or honestly to my latest (http://www.rationalskepticism.org/chris ... l#p2312806 * ).

Cheers,

Stein

MS2 wrote:I don't support Stein's posting style, but it's pathetic that you take such pleasure out of misrepresenting and twisting what he says, knowing you will get a rise out of him. Your posting style when responding to or writing about him is at the level of the playground bully.

I do support Stein's posting style, it suits him.