Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42781  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 27, 2019 11:00 am

Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:I have searched for images for all of these without success.


I'm a bit confused by your last sentence: what images?


Pics of the inscriptions themselves.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42782  Postby Svartalf » May 27, 2019 11:01 am

I'm not sure what "tachous" stands for, my Ancient Greek being rudimentary, but "hecaton" definitely mean a hundred.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42783  Postby Tracer Tong » May 27, 2019 11:05 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:I have searched for images for all of these without success.


I'm a bit confused by your last sentence: what images?


Pics of the inscriptions themselves.


They wouldn't be of any use to you, since, as far as I know, you lack the ability to read them.

You also missed the other part of my post. Do you not know what ἑκατόντάχους means?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42784  Postby Tracer Tong » May 27, 2019 11:06 am

Svartalf wrote:I'm not sure what "tachous" stands for, my Ancient Greek being rudimentary, but "hecaton" definitely mean a hundred.


iTs a mYstEry.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42785  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 28, 2019 4:13 am

Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:I have searched for images for all of these without success.


I'm a bit confused by your last sentence: what images?


Pics of the inscriptions themselves.


They wouldn't be of any use to you, since, as far as I know, you lack the ability to read them.


How can you not know that they have already been read, and translated by academics with an ability exceeding yours, from the Greek into many languages?


You also missed the other part of my post. Do you not know what ἑκατόντάχους means?


Tracer Tong wrote:
Svartalf wrote:I'm not sure what "tachous" stands for, my Ancient Greek being rudimentary, but "hecaton" definitely mean a hundred.


iTs a mYstEry.


Image

It's no mystery to me that the CHI RHO symbol was once employed as a symbol for the centurion in the Roman army but that the militant and authoritarian Christian regime, of the 4th and subsequent centuries, selected and redeployed it, as a symbol for Christ.

"Onward Christian soldiers" .... II Timothy 2:3 (KJV):
"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ."

The historical (or otherwise Jesus) was himself highly impressed with the Roman centurion:
"Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith." Matthew 8:5–13 (TNIV)

is iT a mYstEry ? Or is it further evidence of Roman influence in "The New Testament Jesus Story"
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42786  Postby Tracer Tong » May 28, 2019 10:10 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:

I'm a bit confused by your last sentence: what images?


Pics of the inscriptions themselves.


They wouldn't be of any use to you, since, as far as I know, you lack the ability to read them.


How can you not know that they have already been read, and translated by academics with an ability exceeding yours, from the Greek into many languages?


Feel free to disclose the location of these translations, but this is anyway irrelevant to my reply. You referred to images of the inscriptions, not images of their translations. Again, those images wouldn't be of any use to you, since you can't read them. Or have I underestimated your proficiency?

You've also not answered my question (you quoted it, then proceeded to answer another one). Do you not know what ἑκατόντάχους means?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42787  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 28, 2019 10:11 am

Svartalf wrote:Actually, it's not 'by this sign conquer". the actual Latin phrase was "In hoc signo vinces", which translate more accurately as 'Under that standard, You shall conquer".


In Eusebius VC the phrase Constantine and the whole army supposedly saw
was in Greek (“In this sign you will conquer!”)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho

    The Chi Rho is one of the earliest forms of christogram, formed by superimposing the first two (capital) letters—chi and rho (XP)—of the Greek word XPIΣTOΣ (Christos) in such a way that the vertical stroke of the rho intersects the center of the chi.[2]

    The Chi-Rho symbol was used by the Roman emperor Constantine I (r. 306–337) as part of a military standard (vexillum). Constantine's standard was known as the Labarum.

    ///

    In a memoir of the Roman emperor that Eusebius wrote after Constantine's death (On the Life of Constantine, circa 337–339), a miraculous appearance is said to have come in Gaul long before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. In this later version, the Roman emperor had been pondering the misfortunes that befell commanders who invoked the help of many different gods, and decided to seek divine aid in the forthcoming battle from the One God. At noon, Constantine saw a cross of light imposed over the sun.

    Attached to it, in Greek characters, was the saying "Τούτῳ Νίκα!" (“In this sign you will conquer!”).[7]

    Not only Constantine, but the whole army saw the miracle. That night, Christ appeared to the Roman emperor in a dream and told him to make a replica of the sign he had seen in the sky, which would be a sure defence in battle.

    Eusebius wrote in the Vita that Constantine himself had told him this story "and confirmed it with oaths" late in life "when I was deemed worthy of his acquaintance and company." "Indeed", says Eusebius, "had anyone else told this story, it would not have been easy to accept it."

    [my formatting]


So what's the story once again?

Christ Himself (the Historical Jesus?) appears to Constantine in a dream and tells him that the CHI-RHO symbol, used in earlier centuries to represent "centurion", would be a sure defence in battle. LOL :)

How clever was was Christ? Or Constantine or Eusebius or the later church industry scriptoria that "preserved" Eusebius?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42788  Postby Svartalf » May 28, 2019 10:20 am

Well, I'm not sure how true that story is... Since Constantine had done the Church a major service making it state religion instead of the Imperial Cult, I'm pretty sure that Lactantius and Eusebius were ready to bend facts for a good bit of hagiography.

What I'm pretty certain is the the Chi-Rho or labarum were not used in roman vexillology before Constantine instituted it, replacing the Roman Eagle with a Xian symbol.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42789  Postby Cito di Pense » May 28, 2019 10:49 am

Tracer Tong wrote: You referred to images of the inscriptions, not images of their translations.


Yeah, and you referred to a capacity to read them, as if that was a relevant mark of distinction, you know, like a credential. Carry on with interpretation, or else with the hobby of credentialing.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42790  Postby RealityRules » May 28, 2019 11:09 am

Svartalf wrote:Well, I'm not sure how true that story is... Since Constantine had done the Church a major service making it state religion instead of the Imperial Cult ...

Constantine did not make Christianity the state religion: that didn't happen for another 50 years or so.

Svartalf wrote: I'm pretty sure that Lactantius and Eusebius were ready to bend facts for a good bit of hagiography.

They probably created 'facts' ... [also, their works could have been doctored later to make it seem they were writing history earlier than it happened]

Svartalf wrote:What I'm pretty certain is the the Chi-Rho or labarum were not used in roman vexillology before Constantine instituted it, replacing the Roman Eagle with a Xian symbol.

The point is: the Chi-Rho may not have been - is unlikely to have been - a Christian symbol when Constantine first used it, and there is no evidence he used it before it appeared on coins ~317 ad.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42791  Postby Svartalf » May 28, 2019 11:15 am

I don't know exactly what it was before Constantine adopted it, but it was not a Centurion's ensign, since individual centuries did not have their own signs, the vexilla started at the maniple level, plus cohorts and whole legions.

To be precise, Centurions did have emblems, their helm crest was aligned on a left-right axis unlike others which wen front to back, and their symbol of office was their vine staff... wonder where they stored that in a fight when the left hand had to hold the scutum and the right the gladius or pilum...
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42792  Postby Stein » May 28, 2019 11:29 am

Svartalf wrote:Well, I'm not sure how true that story is... Since Constantine had done the Church a major service making it state religion instead of the Imperial Cult, I'm pretty sure that Lactantius and Eusebius were ready to bend facts for a good bit of hagiography.

What I'm pretty certain is the the Chi-Rho or labarum were not used in roman vexillology before Constantine instituted it, replacing the Roman Eagle with a Xian symbol.


Constantine was one of the first Emperors (Alexander Severus was the very first, thanks to certain advisers like Ulpian, etc.) to be a religious pluralist in office, removing the jackboot from the Christians but not making Christianity a state religion. He did become a Christian himself but he did not force it on others.

The Emperor Constantine adopts Christianity and allows believers of all faiths "their temples of falsehood" "that this restoration of equal privileges to all will prevail to lead them into the straight path".

Julian then effectively abrogates some of the de facto privileges given Christians under Constantine, while Gregory of Nazianzus provides a Christian counterpoint in opposition, stressing the importance of conscience, "our interior and unerring tribunal".

Gregory lives long enough to see Theodosius I reverse Julian's policies with a vengeance, for the first time making Christianity a state religion instead, actually criminalizing other worship and destroying all other temples.

It is Magnus Maximus, ruling briefly as Western Roman Emperor during the time of Theodosius' reign, who presides over the first Christian execution of a heretic, Priscellian. Bishop Martin of Tours, Bishop Ambrose of Milan and Pope Siricius strongly condemn the execution.

Subsequently, Theodosius I responds to riots at a Thessalonica garrison, where a Roman commander is killed, with a ruse that entraps and kills 7,000 civilians, including women and children. When Bishop Ambrose refuses the Emperor church admittance after the massacre, Theodosius performs public penitence before being welcomed back.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42793  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 28, 2019 11:48 am

Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:

Pics of the inscriptions themselves.


They wouldn't be of any use to you, since, as far as I know, you lack the ability to read them.


How can you not know that they have already been read, and translated by academics with an ability exceeding yours, from the Greek into many languages?


Feel free to disclose the location of these translations, but this is anyway irrelevant to my reply. You referred to images of the inscriptions, not images of their translations. Again, those images wouldn't be of any use to you, since you can't read them. Or have I underestimated your proficiency?


Collecting the images would be one part of the process as I see it of cataloguing this specific subset of inscriptions.
For example they could be added to this: http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/chi%20rho.htm

Although I have not formally studied Greek I have been resourceful and enthusiasic enough to use translation tools, to navigate the Perseus and other databases, to ask questions in online beginners Greek forum discussions, and to ask questions of a number of acquaintances who are quite proficient.

You've also not answered my question (you quoted it, then proceeded to answer another one). Do you not know what ἑκατόντάχους means?


No I dont know what that word means. I mistakenly treated it for an instance of centurion, but as you pointed out it is not the same. It has something to do with 100 but I dont know exactly what. If you would like to explain what the word means I'd be both interested and grateful in learning the answer.

However as you should appreciate my focus has been on the instances from antiquity where the chi-rho symbol has been used to represent the centurion. Instead of there being 4 instances, there are now only 3 instances, all from the Eastern empire.


CHI-RHO symbol representing "Centurion":

(1) RA 1903 B, 437 (Revue archaeologique) - Avi Yonah
(2) W 2532 (177-80) (Waddington, W.H.) - Avi Yonah
(3) Megiddo: "Chapel of the Centurion" - Archaeological dig "in progress"
Last edited by Leucius Charinus on May 28, 2019 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42794  Postby Svartalf » May 28, 2019 12:05 pm

Maybe Constantine did not officially make christianity the state religion, I'll have to look that up again, but, following the Council of NiKaia, he sure set up the grounds for it to become so by creating a semi unified 'official" church from which the heretics like the Arians were well defined and easy to distinguish..
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42795  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 28, 2019 12:06 pm

Svartalf wrote:I don't know exactly what it was before Constantine adopted it, but it was not a Centurion's ensign, since individual centuries did not have their own signs, the vexilla started at the maniple level, plus cohorts and whole legions.

To be precise, Centurions did have emblems, their helm crest was aligned on a left-right axis unlike others which wen front to back, and their symbol of office was their vine staff... wonder where they stored that in a fight when the left hand had to hold the scutum and the right the gladius or pilum...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniple_(military_unit)

How did the centurion fit in (if at all) with the maniple level (where you say the vexilla started)?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42796  Postby Svartalf » May 28, 2019 12:12 pm

there were two centurions per maniple, maybe a top officer to be on top of them too but the centurio of the first century (ordo prior) was senior to the other... (sorry, I've not studied the organisation of Roman legions in detail for quite some time), each was nominal head of his century, and responsible for discipline and prompt execution of manoeuvers. the maniple took its name from its sign which depicted a hand.

Of course, after the Marian reforms, the maniple lost much of its importance, as it became a third of the larger cohort.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42797  Postby Stein » May 29, 2019 4:24 pm

Svartalf wrote:Maybe Constantine did not officially make christianity the state religion, I'll have to look that up again, but, following the Council of NiKaia, he sure set up the grounds for it to become so by creating a semi unified 'official" church from which the heretics like the Arians were well defined and easy to distinguish..


He did lay the ground work for a unified Christianity. But obviously, asking that all have "their temples" and that there be "equal privileges to all" is still at a polar opposite from a state religion.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42798  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 03, 2019 2:53 am

Stein wrote:
Svartalf wrote:Maybe Constantine did not officially make christianity the state religion, I'll have to look that up again, but, following the Council of NiKaia, he sure set up the grounds for it to become so by creating a semi unified 'official" church from which the heretics like the Arians were well defined and easy to distinguish..


He did lay the ground work for a unified Christianity. But obviously, asking that all have "their temples" and that there be "equal privileges to all" is still at a polar opposite from a state religion.


What he supposedly said and what he actually did are two different things. Constantine destroyed some of the "most ancient and highly revered" pagan temples in the Eastern empire, and tore down the largest and sole-remaining obelisk (dedicated to the Sun) in Egypt.

He legislated 326 CE that "Religious privileges are reserved for Christians" (or Chrestians, its not completely clear).

His three decade rule can be summarised as follows:

The first decade was good, the second decade was bad, and the final decade, commencing with the Nicene council, was ugly.

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/C ... e-Ugly.htm
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42799  Postby Stein » Jun 06, 2019 1:41 am

Well, here is the full Ehrman/Price debate with no paywall --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzjYmpwbHEA

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42800  Postby proudfootz » Jun 06, 2019 5:49 pm

It's a pleasure to hear Dr Robert Price speak.

Thanks for the link!
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