Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42801  Postby Stein » Jun 16, 2019 12:59 am

And of course, virtually 90 % of the comments below that Ehrman/Price video --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzjYmpwbHEA

-- are in agreement that Price is totally owned by Ehrman throughout. But enjoy that Kool-Aid. I'm told it goes well with denialism and trollery.

:thumbup:

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42802  Postby RealityRules » Jun 16, 2019 10:47 am

Stein wrote:And of course, virtually 90 % of the comments below that Ehrman/Price video...are in agreement that Price is totally owned by Ehrman throughout.

So, Price is not a good debater. And tends to have a unique discussion style.

Ehrman was quite arrogant at times and clearly had hardly read Price, if at all.



Stein wrote:But enjoy that Kool-Aid. I'm told it goes well with denialism and trollery.

err, the Kool-Aid is belief in a tangible Jesus-dude.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42803  Postby Svartalf » Jun 16, 2019 11:40 am

Well, I do guess there was a Jewish agitator named Jesus who was indeed crucified by order of Pontius Pilatus... whether he was the religious leader the gospels describe is another question.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42804  Postby RealityRules » Jun 17, 2019 1:52 am

Svartalf wrote:Well, I do guess there was a Jewish agitator named Jesus who was indeed crucified by order of Pontius Pilatus ...

That's what it comes down to ... guessing ...
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42805  Postby dejuror » Jun 17, 2019 4:15 am

Svartalf wrote:Well, I do guess there was a Jewish agitator named Jesus who was indeed crucified by order of Pontius Pilatus... whether he was the religious leader the gospels describe is another question.

The argument by Ehrman is completely flawed. There is no historical evidence of a character called Jesus of Nazareth who supposedly lived in the time of Pontius Pilate.

The writings attributed to Josephus mention nothing about Nazareth and nothing about anyone from Nazareth.

In addition, Ehrman openly contradicts himself by admitting the New Testament is not a credible historical source yet his argument is based directly on the very discredited NT source.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42806  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 17, 2019 7:52 am

dejuror wrote:The argument by Ehrman is completely flawed. There is no historical evidence of a character called Jesus of Nazareth who supposedly lived in the time of Pontius Pilate.

The writings attributed to Josephus mention nothing about Nazareth and nothing about anyone from Nazareth.

In addition, Ehrman openly contradicts himself by admitting the New Testament is not a credible historical source yet his argument is based directly on the very discredited NT source.


Is that you aa5874?

On a negative note Ehrman writes that (mythicists') denial of the historical Jesus is like denial of the holocaust.

On a positive note he has no qualms about blogging about the explicit sexual scenes involving Jesus in a text called "The Greater Questions of Mary".

PAYWALL: https://ehrmanblog.org/lost-gospels-the ... -the-past/

http://earlychristianwritings.com/questionsmary.html

    8:2 For in the so-called 'Greater Questions of Mary'—there are also 'Lesser' ones forged by them—they claim that he reveals it to her after taking her aside on the mountain, praying, producing a woman from his side, beginning to have sex with her, and then partaking of his emission, if you please, to show that 'Thus we must do, that we may live.'

    8:3 And when Mary was alarmed and fell to the ground, he raised her up and said to her, 'O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?'

Did Jesus pull a woman from his side, and have sex with her?

Why isn't this in the Bible?
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the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42807  Postby dejuror » Jun 17, 2019 8:40 am

Before we get carried away with the outrageous fables about the fiction character called Jesus of Nazareth we must first expose the horrible fallacious contradictory arguments and bizarre logic spouted by Ehrman.

It is most alarming that Ehrman uses the so-called Epistles of Paul as historical writings when it is known that the supposed character called Paul is without a shred of historical evidence at all.

No accepted contemporary writing attributed to writers like Plutarch, Philo, Josephus and no artifact show any reference to any person called Paul, a Pharisee, of the tribe of Benjamin at anytime in the 1st century.

The NT including all the Epistles are propaganda without a shred of credible history written no earlier than the 2nd century.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42808  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 17, 2019 9:04 am

dejuror wrote:It is most alarming that Ehrman uses the so-called Epistles of Paul as historical writings when it is known that the supposed character called Paul is without a shred of historical evidence at all.


The holy ghost of Seneca provided some evidence in the 4th century
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42809  Postby Svartalf » Jun 17, 2019 10:22 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
dejuror wrote:It is most alarming that Ehrman uses the so-called Epistles of Paul as historical writings when it is known that the supposed character called Paul is without a shred of historical evidence at all.


The holy ghost of Seneca provided some evidence in the 4th century

Holy ghost of Seneca? seneca died around 60 AD (before 68 or Nero would no longer have had the clout to make him kill himself)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42810  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 17, 2019 11:39 am

Svartalf wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
dejuror wrote:It is most alarming that Ehrman uses the so-called Epistles of Paul as historical writings when it is known that the supposed character called Paul is without a shred of historical evidence at all.


The holy ghost of Seneca provided some evidence in the 4th century

Holy ghost of Seneca? seneca died around 60 AD (before 68 or Nero would no longer have had the clout to make him kill himself)


The letter exchange betwen Paul and Seneca was forged and passed off as genuine by the 4th century Christian regime. It could be said that the holy ghost of seneca and paul exchanged letters in the 4th century. However unlike Seneca, I doubt whether Paul ever existed in the first place.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42811  Postby dejuror » Jun 17, 2019 11:48 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
dejuror wrote:It is most alarming that Ehrman uses the so-called Epistles of Paul as historical writings when it is known that the supposed character called Paul is without a shred of historical evidence at all.


The holy ghost of Seneca provided some evidence in the 4th century


Yes, yes..... The holy ghosts of Seneca and Paul were writing letters to each other in the 4th century. Jerome seems to have a lot of those ghost writings.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2708.htm
De Viris Illustribus
Lucius Annæus Seneca of Cordova, disciple of the Stoic Sotion and uncle of Lucan the Poet, was a man of most continent life, whom I should not place in the category of saints were it not that those Epistles of Paul to Seneca and Seneca to Paul, which are read by many, provoke me....


Jerome's De Viris Illustribus supports the argument that Epistles of Paul were invented.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42812  Postby Svartalf » Jun 17, 2019 11:52 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
dejuror wrote:It is most alarming that Ehrman uses the so-called Epistles of Paul as historical writings when it is known that the supposed character called Paul is without a shred of historical evidence at all.


The holy ghost of Seneca provided some evidence in the 4th century

Holy ghost of Seneca? seneca died around 60 AD (before 68 or Nero would no longer have had the clout to make him kill himself)


The letter exchange betwen Paul and Seneca was forged and passed off as genuine by the 4th century Christian regime. It could be said that the holy ghost of seneca and paul exchanged letters in the 4th century. However unlike Seneca, I doubt whether Paul ever existed in the first place.

Thanks for the data, I did not know about that forgery.

and since it's obvious that someone wrote the pauline epistles, who is/are the prime suspect(s) for the deed?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42813  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 17, 2019 12:11 pm

If I was running a book Eusebius would be at the shortest odds.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42814  Postby RealityRules » Jun 17, 2019 9:00 pm

Svartalf wrote: since it's obvious that someone wrote the pauline epistles, who is/are the prime suspect(s) for the deed?

Robert M Price suspects a combination of Polycarp, Marcion, one or two others I think, including a possible Paul having a minor role
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42815  Postby dejuror » Jun 18, 2019 4:19 am

Svartalf wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:

The holy ghost of Seneca provided some evidence in the 4th century

Holy ghost of Seneca? seneca died around 60 AD (before 68 or Nero would no longer have had the clout to make him kill himself)


The letter exchange betwen Paul and Seneca was forged and passed off as genuine by the 4th century Christian regime. It could be said that the holy ghost of seneca and paul exchanged letters in the 4th century. However unlike Seneca, I doubt whether Paul ever existed in the first place.

Thanks for the data, I did not know about that forgery.

and since it's obvious that someone wrote the pauline epistles, who is/are the prime suspect(s) for the deed?


All the Epistles in the NT were unknown up to at least the last quarter of the 2nd century based on multiple Christian and non-Apologetic sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the writings attributed to Philo, Plutarch, Josephus, Tacitus, Justin Martyr, Minucius Felix, Ephraim, Origen, Irenaeus, Pliny the younger, Theophilus, Athenagoras and Suetonius.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42816  Postby Svartalf » Jun 18, 2019 7:54 am

the dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with historical Jesus, they predate him.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42817  Postby Hermit » Jun 18, 2019 8:54 am

Svartalf wrote:the dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with historical Jesus, they predate him.

Not all of them.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42818  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 18, 2019 9:58 am

Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with historical Jesus, they predate him.

Not all of them.


Well that ALSO really depends on exactly when the Historical Jesus story was first authored and then circulated for the edification of the Roman Empire. Serious evidence for this appears in the 4th and 5th century with the earliest Greek bible codices (Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus).

The world's community of Biblical Historians use church dogma to date these relics.
None of these codices have been C14 dated. Why is that? Is it 2019?
What C14 did for the Shroud it can also do for the earliest Bibles.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42819  Postby Stein » Jun 18, 2019 4:58 pm

Svartalf wrote:Well, I do guess there was a Jewish agitator named Jesus who was indeed crucified by order of Pontius Pilatus... whether he was the religious leader the gospels describe is another question.

O.K., YOU tell ME: What else do YOU guess about this historical Jewish agitator? In addition to the Pilatus crucifying and the name, what else, if anything, do you guess is historical about this Jesus guy who was nailed?

(Fair Warning: I do NOT take kindly to magic stories about walking on water, feeding hundreds with crumbs, walking talking zombies and bla bla bla; I expect reasonable guesses about a normal historical human being based specifically on the most plausible data we have -- and this is addressed to you, no. one. else.)

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42820  Postby Svartalf » Jun 18, 2019 8:43 pm

I don't believe in miracles either... which is why I wonder about the historical Jesus' status as a religious leader, either he was a master manipulator who arranged for fakery, or he was one big nothing who likely made a scandal in the temple by attacking the merchants there, and was arrested and executed as a seditious element.
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