Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42861  Postby Svartalf » Jun 26, 2019 10:00 am

dejuror wrote:
Svartalf wrote:well, it interesting but true that the word 'christian' appears in neither the gospels nor in Acts, I don't remember if it ever slipped in any of the epistles.


It is the same problem in the Epistle [falsely] attributed to Peter. The earliest Codex, the Sinaiticus, does not contain the Greek word for Christian in 1 Peter 4.16.

1 Peter 4.16 in the Sinaiticus Codex is evidence that there were no person known as Christian.

Surely if the author of 1 Peter claimed his Jesus was the CHRIST and was a follower or believer in the CHRIST then he should have known he was a CHRIST--IAN..

The very author of 1 Peter never heard of Christians when he composed the Epistle.

Well, I don't know in what language Peter I was initially composed, even if the earliest versions we have are in Koine Greek... the definintion of a christian entails believing that Jesus was Messiah, the anointed one (chrestos) of the LOrd... maybe the word took some time to crystallize, but remember, I'm the guy who believes chrestians were an identified group by 64 AD and the Great Neronian fire.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42862  Postby dejuror » Jun 27, 2019 3:29 am

Svartalf wrote:
Well, I don't know in what language Peter I was initially composed, even if the earliest versions we have are in Koine Greek... the definintion of a christian entails believing that Jesus was Messiah, the anointed one (chrestos) of the LOrd... maybe the word took some time to crystallize, but remember, I'm the guy who believes chrestians were an identified group by 64 AD and the Great Neronian fire.


You seem not to be well informed.

You appear not to realise that so-called Christians writers admit that Christians did not call themselves ChrEstians and that the word was derived from the Greek word Christos meaning anointed--never chrestos.

In fact in the Apology attributed Tertullian the supposed Christian writer was highly annoyed that Christians were called Chrestians.

The Apology attributed to Tertullian
But Christian, so far as the meaning of the word is concerned, is derived from anointing. Yes, and even when it is wrongly pronounced by you Chrestianus (for you do not even know accurately the name you hate)...



No-one could have been called Christian [follower of the Christ] up to at least c 130 CE. The people in the Roman Empire, including the Jews, never knew, never heard of and never saw anyone who was the Jewish Messiah in the time of Tiberius. There was no person called the Jewish Messiah until perhaps Simon Barcochebas in the 2nd century.

The writers Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius admitted that the Jews expected their Messianic rulers no earlier than c 66-70 CE and that Vespasian was the Messiah after he defeated the Jews c 70 CE.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42863  Postby Svartalf » Jun 27, 2019 7:28 am

Vespasian the Messiah? no way. He did precisely the reverse of what Mashiach is expected to accomplish... As I keep saying, the person who historically is the closest to the expected Messiah is David Ben Gourion.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42864  Postby dejuror » Jun 27, 2019 10:46 am

Svartalf wrote:Vespasian the Messiah? no way. He did precisely the reverse of what Mashiach is expected to accomplish... As I keep saying, the person who historically is the closest to the expected Messiah is David Ben Gourion.

Again, you appear to be not well informed.

You seem not to know that writers who lived in the 1st century wrote that Vespasian was believed to be the Messianic ruler predicted in Hebrew Scripture.

Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius who all lived in the 1st century knew nothing and wrote nothing about a Jewish Messiah called Jesus of Nazareth.
Examine Wars of the Jews attributed to Josephus.
http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-6.htm
Wars of the Jews 6
But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea....


There was never ever any Jewish Messiah in the 1st century.

Jesus of Nazareth the Jewish Messiah was total fiction.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42865  Postby Svartalf » Jun 27, 2019 11:26 am

the Jewish traitor Flavius Josephus wrote his books to curry favor with Vespasian and Titus, I don't see whatother authors could have written that. I certainly did not notice such a qualification in Suetonius' Life of Vespasian, and Tacitus is full of later additions by bad authors.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42866  Postby RealityRules » Jun 27, 2019 12:49 pm

Many modern historians note the increased amount of propaganda that appeared during Vespasian's reign.[33] Stories of a supernatural emperor who was destined to rule circulated in the empire.[11] Nearly one-third of all coins minted in Rome under Vespasian celebrated military victory or peace.[34] ... Construction projects bore inscriptions praising Vespasian and condemning previous emperors.[35] A temple of peace was constructed in the forum as well.[29] Vespasian approved histories written under his reign, ensuring biases against him were removed.[36]

.... The ancient historians who lived through the period such as Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus and Pliny the Elder [spoke/wrote] suspiciously well of Vespasian while condemning the emperors who came before him.[38] , Josephus identifies Vespasian as a patron and savior, Tacitus admits that his status was elevated by Vespasian, and Pliny dedicated his Natural Histories to Vespasian's son, Titus.[39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespasian


Tacitus' Histories 5.13
Prodigies had indeed occurred, but to avert them either by victims or by vows is held unlawful by a people which, though prone to superstition, is opposed to all propitiatory rites. Contending hosts were seen meeting in the skies, arms flashed, and suddenly the temple was illumined with fire from the clouds. Of a sudden the doors of the shrine opened and a superhuman voice cried: "The gods are departing": at the same moment the mighty stir of their going was heard. Few interpreted these omens as fearful; the majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the East should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world. This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favour ... http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/5A*.html


Suetonius' Life of Vespasian
...5 There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated at that time for men coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome...



Eric Eve argued that

    "Mark introduced spittle into his story of the Blind Man of Bethsaida to create an allusion to the Vespasian stor[ies] [in Tacitus' Histories 4:81 and Suetonius' Vespasian] as part of a wider concern to contrast the messiahship of Jesus with such Roman imperial ‘messianism’."
It's possible and even probable that the account in Mark is based on the accounts about Vespasian
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42867  Postby RealityRules » Jun 27, 2019 12:56 pm

Vespasian being succeeded by his eldest son, Titus, was the notable first time the first Roman emperor was directly succeeded by his own natural son, establishing the Flavian dynasty.

Vespasian is credited with reforming the financial system of Rome after the campaign against Judaea ended successfully, and initiated several ambitious construction projects; including the building of the Flavian Amphitheatre, better known today as the Roman Colosseum, using funds from the spoils of the Jewish Temple after the Siege of Jerusalem.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42868  Postby RealityRules » Jun 27, 2019 1:31 pm

RealityRules wrote:
Eric Eve argued that

    "Mark introduced spittle into his story of the Blind Man of Bethsaida to create an allusion to the Vespasian stor[ies] [in Tacitus' Histories 4:81* and Suetonius' Vespasian] as part of a wider concern to contrast the messiahship of Jesus with such Roman imperial ‘messianism’."
It's possible and even probable that the account in Mark is based on the accounts about Vespasian

* it's worth reading on ie. reading Tacitus' Histories 4:82, -

    82 These events gave Vespasian a deeper desire to visit the sanctuary of the god to consult him with regard to his imperial fortune: he ordered all to be excluded from the temple. Then after he had entered the temple and was absorbed in contemplation of the god, he saw behind him one of the leading men of Egypt, named Basilides, who he knew was detained by sickness in a place many days' journey distant from Alexandria. He asked the priests whether Basilides had entered the temple on that day; he questioned the passers-by whether he had been seen in the city; finally, he sent some cavalry and found that at that moment he had been eighty miles away: then he concluded that this was a supernatural vision and drew a prophecy from the name Basilides.

    83 The origin of this god [Serapis; see 81] has not yet been generally treated by our authors: the Egyptian priests tell the following story, that when King Ptolemy, the first of the Macedonians to put the power of Egypt on a firm foundation, was giving the new city of Alexandria walls, temples, and religious rites, there appeared to him in his sleep a vision of a young man of extraordinary beauty and of more than human stature, who warned him to send his most faithful friends to Pontus and bring his statue hither; the vision said that this act would be a happy thing for the kingdom and that the city that received the god would be great and famous: after these words the youth seemed to be carried to heaven in a blaze of fire. Ptolemy, moved by this miraculous omen, disclosed this nocturnal vision to the Egyptian priests, whose business it is to interpret such things. When they proved to know little of Pontus and foreign countries, he questioned Timotheus, an Athenian of the clan of the Eumolpidae, whom he had called from Eleusis to preside over the sacred rites, and asked him what this religion was and what the divinity meant. Timotheus learned by questioning men who had travelled to Pontus that there was a city there called Sinope, and that not far from it there was a temple of Jupiter Dis, long famous among the natives: for there sits beside the god a female figure which most call Proserpina. But Ptolemy, although prone to superstitious fears after the nature of kings, when he once more felt secure, being more eager for pleasures than religious rites, began gradually to neglect the matter and to turn his attention to other things, until the same vision, now more terrible and insistent, threatened ruin upon the king himself and his kingdom unless his orders were carried out. Then Ptolemy directed that ambassadors and gifts should be despatched to King Scydrothemis — he ruled over the people of Sinope at that time — and when the embassy was about to sail he instructed them to visit Pythian Apollo. The ambassadors found the sea favourable; and the answer of the oracle was not uncertain: Apollo bade them go on and bring back the image of his father, but leave that of his sister.9

    84 When the ambassadors reached Sinope, they delivered the gifts, requests, and messages of their king to Scydrothemis. He was all uncertainty, now fearing the god and again being terrified by the threats and opposition of his people; often he was tempted by the gifts and promises of the ambassadors. In the meantime three years passed during which Ptolemy did not lessen his zeal or his appeals; he increased the dignity of his ambassadors, the number of his ships, and the quantity of gold offered. Then a terrifying vision appeared to Scydrothemis, warning him not to hinder longer the purposes of the god: as he still hesitated, various disasters, diseases, and the evident anger of the gods, growing heavier from day to day, beset the king. He called an assembly of his people and made known to them the god's orders, the visions that had appeared to him and to Ptolemy, and the misfortunes that were multiplying upon them: the people opposed their king; they were jealous of Egypt, afraid for themselves, and so gathered about the temple of the god. At this point the tale becomes stranger, for tradition says that the god himself, voluntarily embarking on the fleet that was lying on the shore, miraculously crossed the wide stretch of sea and reached Alexandria in two days. A temple, befitting the size of the city, was erected in the quarter called Rhacotis; there had previously been on that spot an ancient shrine dedicated to Serapis and Isis. Such is the most popular account of the origin and arrival of the god. Yet I am not unaware that there are some who maintain that the god was brought from Seleucia in Syria in the reign of Ptolemy III; still others claim that the same Ptolemy introduced the god, but that the place from which he came was Memphis, once a famous city and the bulwark of ancient Egypt. Many regard the god himself as identical with Aesculapius, because he cures the sick; some as Osiris, the oldest god among these peoples; still more identify him with Jupiter as the supreme lord of all things; the majority, however, arguing from the attributes of the god that are seen on his statue or from their own conjectures, hold him to be Father Dis.

    85 1 But before Domitian and Mucianus reached the Alps, they received news of the success among the Treviri. The chief proof of their victory was given by the presence of the enemy's leader, Valentinus, who, never losing courage, continued to show by his looks the same spirit that he had always maintained. He was given an opportunity to speak, but solely that his questioners might judge of his nature; and he was condemned. While being executed, someone taunted him with the fact that his native country had been subdued, to which he replied that he found therein consolation for his own death.
^So many aspects of these sections parallel aspects of the accounts of Jesus of Nazareth, albeit in accounts of more than one person.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42869  Postby dejuror » Jun 28, 2019 1:55 am

Svartalf wrote:the Jewish traitor Flavius Josephus wrote his books to curry favor with Vespasian and Titus, I don't see whatother authors could have written that. I certainly did not notice such a qualification in Suetonius' Life of Vespasian, and Tacitus is full of later additions by bad authors.


I am glad that you claim that Josephus was a Jewish traitor who wrote his books to curry favor with Vespasian and Titus. Well, based on your claim Josephus could not have written that Jesus was the Messiah when he had already claimed that Vespasian was the Messianic ruler and Savior.

Examine Wars of the Jews 7.4.1
And as this good-will to Vespasian was universal, those that enjoyed any remarkable dignities could not have patience enough to stay in Rome, but made haste to meet him at a very great distance from it; nay, indeed, none of the rest could endure the delay of seeing him, but did all pour out of the city in such crowds, and were so universally possessed with the opinion that it was easier and better for them to go out than to stay there, that this was the very first time that the city joyfully perceived itself almost empty of its citizens; for those that staid within were fewer than those that went out.

But as soon as the news was come that he was hard by, and those that had met him at first related with what good humor he received every one that came to him, then it was that the whole multitude that had remained in the city, with their wives and children, came into the road, and waited for him there; and for those whom he passed by, they made all sorts of acclamations, on account of the joy they had to see him, and the pleasantness of his countenance, and styled him their Benefactor and Savior.......


If Josephus the supposed Jewish traitor wrote his books to curry favor with Roman Emperors then Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 and 20.9.1 must be forgeries.

Josephus would have been executed, probably had his head cut off, if he claimed and wrote Vespasian was indeed the Benefactor, the Messiah and Savior while simultaneously publicly stating it was a dead crucified Jew called Jesus who was the Messiah.

Jesus the Messiah never ever had any history was a product of forgeries and fiction.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42870  Postby dejuror » Jun 29, 2019 2:27 am

dejuror wrote:........It was the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE and supposed prophecies about the coming of Jewish Messianic rulers in Jewish writings as stated in writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius that motivated people to invent conspiracy theories which would later become the foundation of a new religion sometime in the 2nd century.


RealityRules wrote:
I can't disagree with this, though I'm not sure it was "conspiracy theories" which would later become the foundation of Christianity.


Well, Christians writers of antiquity did put forward conspiracy theories which later became the very foundational belief of the Christianity.

It is claimed by multiple apologetic writers that their supposed Jesus the Messiah must have come, was killed by the Jews causing the Jewish Temple to fall in c 70 CE which was predicted in the books of Hebrew Scripture.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0503.htm
Hippolytus Expository Treatise Against the Jews
7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of that ancient fabrication of the calf? Was it on account of the idolatry of the people? Was it for the blood of the prophets? Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel? By no means, he says; for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them, and benignity; but it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father.....



http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
Justin's Dialogue with Trypho
...... you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer; and that your land may be desolate, and your cities burned with fire; and that strangers may eat your fruit in your presence, and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem.' For you are not recognised among the rest of men by any other mark than your fleshly circumcision. For none of you, I suppose, will venture to say that God neither did nor does foresee the events, which are future, nor fore-ordained his deserts for each one. Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him...


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04161.htm
Celsus Against Origen 1.47
Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple......... he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet......


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0308.htm
Tertullian's Answer to the Jews
Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin. And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel.....


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

Irenaeus Against Heresies
5. From all these passages are revealed to us, not merely the particulars of the apostasy, and [the doings] of him who concentrates in himself every satanic error, but also, that there is one and the same God the Father, who was declared by the prophets, but made manifest by Christ. For if what Daniel prophesied concerning the end has been confirmed by the Lord, when He said, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (and the angel Gabriel gave the interpretation of the visions to Daniel, and he is the archangel of the Creator (Demiurgi), who also proclaimed to Mary the visible coining and the incarnation of Christ), then one and the same God is most manifestly pointed out, who sent the prophets, and made promise of the Son, and called us into His knowledge.



Eusebius Church History 2.6. 8.
In addition to these the same author records many other tumults which were stirred up in Jerusalem itself, and shows that from that time seditions and wars and mischievous plots followed each other in quick succession, and never ceased in the city and in all Judea until finally the siege of Vespasian overwhelmed them. Thus the divine vengeance overtook the Jews for the crimes which they dared to commit against Christ....


The evidence is clear and overwhelming. Church writers did engage in conspiracy theories attempting to explain the destruction of Jerusalem and the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

Jesus of Nazareth was a mere conspiracy theory without a shred of history.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42871  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jul 02, 2019 3:39 pm

dejuror wrote:The evidence is clear and overwhelming. Church writers did engage in conspiracy theories attempting to explain the destruction of Jerusalem and the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

Jesus of Nazareth was a mere conspiracy theory without a shred of history.


Didn't Hans Eusebius Anderson write a history of the Emperor's New Book?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42872  Postby Stein » Jul 12, 2019 1:07 pm

Ignorance, amateurism and historical amnesia CAN KILL --

http://on.theatln.tc/dNC1yBt

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42873  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Stein wrote:Ignorance, amateurism and historical amnesia CAN KILL --

http://on.theatln.tc/dNC1yBt

Stein


Harper's Magazine, 1964, "The paranoid style in American politics"

https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the ... -politics/

. . . It is a notorious fact that the Monarchs of Europe and the Pope of Rome are at this very moment plotting our destruction and threatening the extinction of our political, civil, and religious institutions. We have the best reasons for believing that corruption has found its way into our Executive Chamber, and that our Executive head is tainted with the infectious venom of Catholicism. . . . The Pope has recently sent his ambassador of state to this country on a secret commission, the effect of which is an extraordinary boldness of the Catholic church throughout the United States. . . . These minions of the Pope are boldly insulting our Senators; reprimanding our Statesmen; propagating the adulterous union of Church and State; abusing with foul calumny all governments but Catholic, and spewing out the bitterest execrations on all Protestantism. The Catholics in the United States receive from abroad more than $200,000 annually for the propagation of their creed. Add to this the vast revenues collected here. . . .


[Texas newspaper opinion, 1855]
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42874  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jul 12, 2019 4:55 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:Ignorance, amateurism and historical amnesia CAN KILL --

http://on.theatln.tc/dNC1yBt

Stein


Harper's Magazine, 1964, "The paranoid style in American politics"

https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the ... -politics/

. . . It is a notorious fact that the Monarchs of Europe and the Pope of Rome are at this very moment plotting our destruction and threatening the extinction of our political, civil, and religious institutions. We have the best reasons for believing that corruption has found its way into our Executive Chamber, and that our Executive head is tainted with the infectious venom of Catholicism. . . . The Pope has recently sent his ambassador of state to this country on a secret commission, the effect of which is an extraordinary boldness of the Catholic church throughout the United States. . . . These minions of the Pope are boldly insulting our Senators; reprimanding our Statesmen; propagating the adulterous union of Church and State; abusing with foul calumny all governments but Catholic, and spewing out the bitterest execrations on all Protestantism. The Catholics in the United States receive from abroad more than $200,000 annually for the propagation of their creed. Add to this the vast revenues collected here. . . .


[Texas newspaper opinion, 1855]



Constantine to the civilian populace in general c.321 CE:

"At death, people shall have the right to leave property to the Church." (CT: 16.2.4)


"We must not see the fact of usurpation;
law was once introduced without reason, and has become reasonable.
We must make it regarded as authoritative, eternal, and conceal its origin,
if we do not wish that it should soon come to an end."

~ Blaise Pascal, "Pensees"
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42875  Postby Stein » Jul 13, 2019 9:46 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:Ignorance, amateurism and historical amnesia CAN KILL --

http://on.theatln.tc/dNC1yBt

Stein


Harper's Magazine, 1964, "The paranoid style in American politics"

https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the ... -politics/

. . . It is a notorious fact that the Monarchs of Europe and the Pope of Rome are at this very moment plotting our destruction and threatening the extinction of our political, civil, and religious institutions. We have the best reasons for believing that corruption has found its way into our Executive Chamber, and that our Executive head is tainted with the infectious venom of Catholicism. . . . The Pope has recently sent his ambassador of state to this country on a secret commission, the effect of which is an extraordinary boldness of the Catholic church throughout the United States. . . . These minions of the Pope are boldly insulting our Senators; reprimanding our Statesmen; propagating the adulterous union of Church and State; abusing with foul calumny all governments but Catholic, and spewing out the bitterest execrations on all Protestantism. The Catholics in the United States receive from abroad more than $200,000 annually for the propagation of their creed. Add to this the vast revenues collected here. . . .


[Texas newspaper opinion, 1855]


Wow, how uncanny. This certainly reads just like a myther rant. Yup, this is certainly relevant.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42876  Postby dogsgod » Jul 23, 2019 4:53 am

ok
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42877  Postby RealityRules » Jul 26, 2019 5:42 am

Raphael Lataster has a new book out


Forward by James Crossley

    Editor of the Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus

    Professor of Bible, Society and Politics at St Mary’s University, Twickenham
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42879  Postby RealityRules » Aug 05, 2019 1:19 pm


At the beginning of research into the historical Jesus, questions about proof of his existence (outside the New Testament texts) were nonetheless posed.

  • In the middle of the nineteenth century, Bruno Bauer argued that Christianity born in the second century was a sort of syncretism combining different religious ideas (Jewish, Greek, Roman). Jesus is not at the origin of this Christianity, but a literary fiction to give this “new religion” a founder.
  • At the beginning of the twentieth century the German philosopher Arthur Drews published a book, The Christ Myth, in which he considered the figure of Jesus as the personification of an earlier Christic myth, showing that all the epithets of Jesus were borrowed from mythologies Jewish and Greek.

These theories remained marginal however and, despite the fact that in the 1st and 2nd centuries there are no texts outside the New Testament clearly attesting to the existence of a Jesus of Nazareth, the historicity of such a character is almost no longer questioned.

  • Thus Daniel Marguerat, eminent exegete of the New Testament, says: “the meaning of his deeds and actions, not his existence, is debated today” (p.13, in his Introduction to the edited volume Jesus de Nazareth. Nouvelles approches d’une énigme, Geneva, Labor and Fides, 1998).

According to Nanine Charbonnel...this distinction between the historical Jesus and the reinterpretations of his life and death in the Gospels has been detrimental to research. Relying on a “rationalization” of evangelical texts has prevented deeper understanding of these texts by questioning them almost exclusively from an idea of '​​a historical core', thus seeking an historical basis of certain pericopes as well as indications of borrowing from Judaism or reinterpretations after the death of Jesus in others. Faced with the affirmation shared by believing scholars and agnostic intellectuals that Jesus is a historical figure of whom we know almost nothing historically, the author of this book proposes to read the New Testament texts from the idea that Jesus Christ would be a “paper figure”. The philosopher’s approach includes a severe critique of hermeneutics, and in particular the current called “hermeneutic phenomenology”.

[Charbonnel] proposes reading the Gospel tales as midrashim, reminding us rightly that it is impossible to read the New Testament texts without locating them in their relation to the Old Testament (in Hebrew and Greek). As a midrash, an exegesis and reinterpretation of earlier texts, evangelical tales set up a theology of fulfillment through narratives, drawing largely on the texts and themes of the Hebrew Bible.

Charbonnel shows this in pedagogical tables indicating the different borrowing and rewriting that can be found behind the tales of the Gospels. She then details the function of the characters appearing in the Gospels, like the twelve apostles representing the twelve tribes of the new Israel, and Mary [representing] the Jewish people who begets the Messiah. Jesus is the new Adam, the new Moses, the new Elijah and the new Elishah, and also the new Joshua and the incarnation of the “suffering servant”; a messiah who brings together different messianic traits. The Gospels no longer appear as compilations but as creative works repeating and transforming statements in the Hebrew Bible ...

Thomas Römer, preface in Jésus-Christ, sublime figure de papier (2017, Berg International, in French) by Nanine Charbonnel, a specialist in hermeneutics, Université de Strasbourg, Faculté de philosophie.

The English translation of the description on that publisher's page refers to "the Hebrew sacred texts in which speech and reality are not differentiated" and says "The writers of the Gospels have done an admirable job, apart from any historical existence of the characters, outside categories that we are accustomed to handling (legend, literature, etc.). They are entirely symbolic texts, and entirely elaborated within the framework of Judaism of the time. Only a hermeneutical confusion -- that is to say, the taking of what was to be taken figuratively, accentuated by the multiplicity of languages ​​used at the time (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) -- explains the subsequent belief in an existing man."
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42880  Postby dejuror » Aug 06, 2019 12:15 am

RealityRules wrote:...... They are entirely symbolic texts, and entirely elaborated within the framework of Judaism of the time. Only a hermeneutical confusion -- that is to say, the taking of what was to be taken figuratively, accentuated by the multiplicity of languages ​​used at the time (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) -- explains the subsequent belief in an existing man."


Christians did not believe their Jesus was an existing man. Their very stories show they believe their Jesus was god in the flesh born without a human father.

It is clearly shown that Christian writers had no history of the birth or death of their Jesus and invented fictional events for the character in the time of Pilate.

In effect, Christian stories of their Jesus are all non-historical .

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0315.htm

On the Flesh of Christ
Now, that we may give a simpler answer, it was not fit that the Son of God should be born of a human father's seed................ He only wanted to assume flesh, of the flesh of man without the seed of a man; for the seed of a man was unnecessary for One who had the seed of God. As, then, before His birth of the virgin, He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father.
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