Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42901  Postby hoopy frood » Sep 12, 2019 8:36 am

DKeane wrote:
A common refrain has been along the lines of 'no historian professor disputes the 'historicity' of Jesus or of the Gospels',


I will have to watch out for that one. Should note that no historian disputes the gospels of The Flying Spaghetti Monster either - so the acts of Jesus and FSM must be equally probable!


Quite so.

If you are agnostic about god, you should be equally agnostic about Bertrand Russell's orbiting pink teapot, given the evidence for either proposition is equal, i.e. none whatsoever.

P.S. Love your avatar, one of my fav Escher's.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42902  Postby DKeane » Sep 13, 2019 1:05 pm

If you are agnostic about god, you should be equally agnostic about Bertrand Russell's orbiting pink teapot, given the evidence for either proposition is equal, i.e. none whatsoever.

P.S. Love your avatar, one of my fav Escher's.


Agreed on all counts. Great painting and relatively unknown, which is one of the reasons I chose it. Thanks.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42903  Postby newolder » Mar 13, 2020 9:22 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with historical Jesus, they predate him.

Not all of them.


Well that ALSO really depends on exactly when the Historical Jesus story was first authored and then circulated for the edification of the Roman Empire. Serious evidence for this appears in the 4th and 5th century with the earliest Greek bible codices (Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus).

The world's community of Biblical Historians use church dogma to date these relics.
None of these codices have been C14 dated. Why is that? Is it 2019?
What C14 did for the Shroud it can also do for the earliest Bibles.


Just dropping this here.

Exclusive: 'Dead Sea Scrolls' at the Museum of the Bible are all forgeries

Months of testing confirm earlier suspicions that the fragments were made in modern times. What happens next?


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Re: Historical Jesus

#42904  Postby Svartalf » Mar 13, 2020 9:52 pm

Thanks; I needed the entertainment.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42905  Postby proudfootz » Mar 14, 2020 1:39 am

newolder wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with historical Jesus, they predate him.

Not all of them.


Well that ALSO really depends on exactly when the Historical Jesus story was first authored and then circulated for the edification of the Roman Empire. Serious evidence for this appears in the 4th and 5th century with the earliest Greek bible codices (Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus).

The world's community of Biblical Historians use church dogma to date these relics.
None of these codices have been C14 dated. Why is that? Is it 2019?
What C14 did for the Shroud it can also do for the earliest Bibles.


Just dropping this here.

Exclusive: 'Dead Sea Scrolls' at the Museum of the Bible are all forgeries

Months of testing confirm earlier suspicions that the fragments were made in modern times. What happens next?


NatGeo link


As the Book of Genesis is allegedly written by Moses, it's a forgery of a forgery. :grin:
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42906  Postby Stein » Mar 28, 2020 11:50 pm

The previous three postings, starting with #42903 and ending with #42905, should be removed by the moderators. They have zilch to do with the Historical Jesus of Galilee. Are the moderators here to maintain the rules of this board, or aren't they?

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42907  Postby Macdoc » Mar 29, 2020 12:10 am

Suck it up buttercup ......few if any give a flying fuck about this kind crap. Go find some other god botherers ....there's lots of fools out there who might welcome your pompous shite. :nono:
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42908  Postby proudfootz » Mar 29, 2020 12:33 am

I don't know - I'd consider that all things Bible are at least tangentally related to characters appearing in the collection.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42909  Postby Svartalf » Mar 29, 2020 9:56 am

plus the main bit of the thread had already run its course, so necroing it for tengentials and banter is OK
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42910  Postby dogsgod » Mar 31, 2020 7:32 pm

Stein wrote:The previous three postings, starting with #42903 and ending with #42905, should be removed by the moderators. They have zilch to do with the Historical Jesus of Galilee. Are the moderators here to maintain the rules of this board, or aren't they?

Stein
This thread is not about "The Historical Jesus of Galilee," Stein. The OP asks if anyone here has read The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a mythical Christ?, so please, try to keep with the program by staying on topic.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42911  Postby proudfootz » Apr 01, 2020 1:18 am

:cheers:

Hi dogsgod!
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42912  Postby dogsgod » Apr 01, 2020 6:56 pm

Hi proudfootz, cheers

I can't help but check in every now and then.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42913  Postby dogsgod » Apr 01, 2020 7:10 pm

Was Bart Ehrman's book, The Historical Jesus, so bad that it killed this topic? I mean, there was nothing there to counter the Doherty theory.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42914  Postby proudfootz » Apr 02, 2020 12:19 am

Of the half dozen people interested in the topic, everyone - whether firmly on one side or another on the historicity question, or firmly agnostic - realized no new information was forthcoming that was likely to change their minds.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42915  Postby Tracer Tong » Apr 03, 2020 8:05 pm

dogsgod wrote:Was Bart Ehrman's book, The Historical Jesus, so bad that it killed this topic? I mean, there was nothing there to counter the Doherty theory.


What is his theory?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42916  Postby dogsgod » Apr 04, 2020 1:25 am

Tracer Tong wrote:
dogsgod wrote:Was Bart Ehrman's book, The Historical Jesus, so bad that it killed this topic? I mean, there was nothing there to counter the Doherty theory.


What is his theory?


I boo booed. Ehrman's book was Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, not The Historical Jesus, my bad.

His theory was that Jesus existed.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42917  Postby proudfootz » Apr 04, 2020 2:06 am

Doherty argues that the simplest and most complete explanation of such evidence we have is that the Jesus we know of devolves from Jesus being an avatar of God as represented in the Pauline tradition who is accessible by study of scripture and visions to the more 'human' teacher and healer as presented in the Gospel narratives. Doherty's 2009 book Jesus: Neither God Nor Man goes into excruciating detail on all the relevant texts.

It would be difficult to do justice to Ehrman's 2012 book Did Jesus Exist? without reproducing the text in full, but skimming through it again the sources Ehrman cites Tacitus as evidence that high ranking Romans of the 2nd century knew that Jesus lived and was executed by the governor of Judea, and clues in the various narratives in 'The New Testament' as indicating they are referring to an historical person. Ehrman argues that the 'Gospels' are independent sources and that they are firmly based on 'oral traditions' going back to the time this Jesus is supposed to have lived.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42918  Postby dogsgod » Apr 04, 2020 4:23 am

Ehrman reads an historical Jesus into the gospels much like Paul reads everything Christ into his ancient scriptures, what we now call The Old Testament.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42919  Postby dejuror » Apr 04, 2020 4:28 am

Ehrman's argument for an historical Jesus is probably the very worst known to mankind since he admits his primary sources are riddled with forgeries, fiction and implausible accounts. Ehrman provided no historical contemporary evidence at all to support that a character called Jesus of Nazareth was a contemporary of Pilate.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42920  Postby Svartalf » Apr 04, 2020 10:06 am

Isn't Tacitus close enough to count? He was not a novelist, but a real historian.
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