Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Re: Historical Jesus

#42961  Postby proudfootz » May 03, 2020 6:10 pm

I was just reading that.

When considering Historicist polemics it seems to boil down to their incompetence or dishonesty.

But of course, it could be both weapons are brought to bear against skeptics.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 10915

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Historical Jesus

#42962  Postby dogsgod » May 03, 2020 9:17 pm

proudfootz wrote:I was just reading that.

When considering Historicist polemics it seems to boil down to their incompetence or dishonesty.

But of course, it could be both weapons are brought to bear against skeptics.

It could be that some people need certainty while there are those that can live with a little ambiguity. Those that question the status quo and suggest that we can't be so certain about early Christianity are viewed as a threat to those that claim to know otherwise.
dogsgod
 
Posts: 1994

Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42963  Postby RealityRules » May 05, 2020 10:26 am

An interesting documentary, 'Marketing the Messiah', has just been released for paid viewing online.

The following scholars contributed (in order of initial appearance; they all appear repeatedly):

  • Dr Geoffrey Dunn, Honorary Research Associate, Dept of Ancient Languages & Cultures, University of Pretoria; & member, Advisory Board of the Journal of Early Christian Studies
  • Dr Michael Bird, Lecturer in Theology, Ridley College
  • Dr Mark Goodacre, Department of Religious Studies, Duke University
  • Dr Brent Landau, BA, M.Div. Th.D, Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Texas,
  • Dr Chris Forbes, Senior Lecturer, Department of Ancient History, Macquarie University
  • Dr Shushma Malik, Lecturer in Classics, University of Roehampton
  • Dr Amy-Jill Levine, University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies, Vanderbilt
  • Prof David Runia, University of Melbourne and Australian Catholic University
  • Dr Richard Carrier, Author, On The Historicity Of Jesus
  • Dr Robert M Price, Author; Editor, the Journal Of Higher Criticism; Host of The Bible Geek,
  • Dr Raphael Lataster, Lecturer In Religious Studies, University Of Sydney
  • David Fitzgerald, who has a degree in history and was an associate member of a Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion, also appears.

Marketing The Messiah (Official Trailer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79yGILbkadk

Promo 2' https://youtu.be/REFL20Z5dzs

'Promo 3' https://youtu.be/ZdMmPU7H3DE

Mark Goodacre https://youtu.be/-QPNT4w4yCg

Amy Jill-Levine [on the messiah] https://youtu.be/Oz-1uIi7AnA

Robert N Price, about the Johannine texts https://youtu.be/ntGAlqs7TVQ

Richard Carrier on the marketing problem after destruction of the Temple https://youtu.be/KfKW2YBoNAc

https://deepdivedocumentaries.com/watch-marketing-the-messiah-today/
User avatar
RealityRules
 
Name: GMak
Posts: 2867

New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42964  Postby Stein » May 13, 2020 9:59 pm

RealityRules wrote:An interesting documentary, 'Marketing the Messiah', has just been released for paid viewing online.

The following scholars contributed (in order of initial appearance; they all appear repeatedly):

  • Dr Geoffrey Dunn, Honorary Research Associate, Dept of Ancient Languages & Cultures, University of Pretoria; & member, Advisory Board of the Journal of Early Christian Studies
  • Dr Michael Bird, Lecturer in Theology, Ridley College
  • Dr Mark Goodacre, Department of Religious Studies, Duke University
  • Dr Brent Landau, BA, M.Div. Th.D, Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Texas,
  • Dr Chris Forbes, Senior Lecturer, Department of Ancient History, Macquarie University
  • Dr Shushma Malik, Lecturer in Classics, University of Roehampton
  • Dr Amy-Jill Levine, University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies, Vanderbilt
  • Prof David Runia, University of Melbourne and Australian Catholic University
  • Dr Richard Carrier, Author, On The Historicity Of Jesus
  • Dr Robert M Price, Author; Editor, the Journal Of Higher Criticism; Host of The Bible Geek,
  • Dr Raphael Lataster, Lecturer In Religious Studies, University Of Sydney
  • David Fitzgerald, who has a degree in history and was an associate member of a Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion, also appears.

Marketing The Messiah (Official Trailer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79yGILbkadk

Promo 2' https://youtu.be/REFL20Z5dzs

'Promo 3' https://youtu.be/ZdMmPU7H3DE

Mark Goodacre https://youtu.be/-QPNT4w4yCg

Amy Jill-Levine [on the messiah] https://youtu.be/Oz-1uIi7AnA

Robert N Price, about the Johannine texts https://youtu.be/ntGAlqs7TVQ

Richard Carrier on the marketing problem after destruction of the Temple https://youtu.be/KfKW2YBoNAc

https://deepdivedocumentaries.com/watch-marketing-the-messiah-today/


Some real scholars listed here --

https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2 ... process-c/

Stein
Stein
 
Posts: 2443

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42965  Postby proudfootz » May 14, 2020 6:28 pm

Thanks for the link.

Apparently one of The Jesus Process authors wrote a book about it.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 10915

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42966  Postby dogsgod » May 16, 2020 6:50 am

Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:An interesting documentary, 'Marketing the Messiah', has just been released for paid viewing online.

The following scholars contributed (in order of initial appearance; they all appear repeatedly):

  • Dr Geoffrey Dunn, Honorary Research Associate, Dept of Ancient Languages & Cultures, University of Pretoria; & member, Advisory Board of the Journal of Early Christian Studies
  • Dr Michael Bird, Lecturer in Theology, Ridley College
  • Dr Mark Goodacre, Department of Religious Studies, Duke University
  • Dr Brent Landau, BA, M.Div. Th.D, Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Texas,
  • Dr Chris Forbes, Senior Lecturer, Department of Ancient History, Macquarie University
  • Dr Shushma Malik, Lecturer in Classics, University of Roehampton
  • Dr Amy-Jill Levine, University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies, Vanderbilt
  • Prof David Runia, University of Melbourne and Australian Catholic University
  • Dr Richard Carrier, Author, On The Historicity Of Jesus
  • Dr Robert M Price, Author; Editor, the Journal Of Higher Criticism; Host of The Bible Geek,
  • Dr Raphael Lataster, Lecturer In Religious Studies, University Of Sydney
  • David Fitzgerald, who has a degree in history and was an associate member of a Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion, also appears.

Marketing The Messiah (Official Trailer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79yGILbkadk

Promo 2' https://youtu.be/REFL20Z5dzs

'Promo 3' https://youtu.be/ZdMmPU7H3DE

Mark Goodacre https://youtu.be/-QPNT4w4yCg

Amy Jill-Levine [on the messiah] https://youtu.be/Oz-1uIi7AnA

Robert N Price, about the Johannine texts https://youtu.be/ntGAlqs7TVQ

Richard Carrier on the marketing problem after destruction of the Temple https://youtu.be/KfKW2YBoNAc

https://deepdivedocumentaries.com/watch-marketing-the-messiah-today/


Some real scholars listed here --

https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2 ... process-c/

Stein


Real scholars, unlike those impostors from the previous post?
dogsgod
 
Posts: 1994

Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42967  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 16, 2020 7:59 am

Stein wrote:

Some real scholars listed here --

Just as an aside; scholar isn't a protected term.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30864
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Historical Jesus

#42968  Postby Hermit » May 16, 2020 8:25 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Stein wrote:

Some real scholars listed here --

Just as an aside; scholar isn't a protected term.

Do you mean there can be actual scholars®© among bigenders as well as littleenders*?

*With apologies to J. Swift
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3714
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42969  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 16, 2020 11:23 am

"Principles of Historical research need not be different
from criteria of common sense. And common sense teaches
us that outsiders must not tell insiders what they should
do. I shall therefore not discuss directly what biblical
scholars are doing. They are the insiders."


ON PAGANS, JEWS, and CHRISTIANS--- Arnaldo Momigliano, 1987
Chapter 1: Biblical Studies and Classical Studies
Simple Reflections upon Historical Method, p.3
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
 
Posts: 838

Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42970  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 16, 2020 12:27 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Stein wrote:

Some real scholars listed here --

Just as an aside; scholar isn't a protected term.

Do you mean there can be actual scholars®© among bigenders as well as littleenders*?

*With apologies to J. Swift

:lol:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30864
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42971  Postby proudfootz » May 17, 2020 1:46 am

The Big Endians seem to have won over the specialists.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 10915

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42972  Postby Hermit » May 17, 2020 2:00 am

proudfootz wrote:The Big Endians seem to have won over the specialists.

Storage was not the issue. The rebellions erupted over which end of an egg should be broken.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3714
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42973  Postby Stein » May 18, 2020 5:01 am

dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:An interesting documentary, 'Marketing the Messiah', has just been released for paid viewing online.

The following scholars contributed (in order of initial appearance; they all appear repeatedly):

  • Dr Geoffrey Dunn, Honorary Research Associate, Dept of Ancient Languages & Cultures, University of Pretoria; & member, Advisory Board of the Journal of Early Christian Studies
  • Dr Michael Bird, Lecturer in Theology, Ridley College
  • Dr Mark Goodacre, Department of Religious Studies, Duke University
  • Dr Brent Landau, BA, M.Div. Th.D, Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Texas,
  • Dr Chris Forbes, Senior Lecturer, Department of Ancient History, Macquarie University
  • Dr Shushma Malik, Lecturer in Classics, University of Roehampton
  • Dr Amy-Jill Levine, University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies, Vanderbilt
  • Prof David Runia, University of Melbourne and Australian Catholic University
  • Dr Richard Carrier, Author, On The Historicity Of Jesus
  • Dr Robert M Price, Author; Editor, the Journal Of Higher Criticism; Host of The Bible Geek,
  • Dr Raphael Lataster, Lecturer In Religious Studies, University Of Sydney
  • David Fitzgerald, who has a degree in history and was an associate member of a Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion, also appears.

Marketing The Messiah (Official Trailer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79yGILbkadk

Promo 2' https://youtu.be/REFL20Z5dzs

'Promo 3' https://youtu.be/ZdMmPU7H3DE

Mark Goodacre https://youtu.be/-QPNT4w4yCg

Amy Jill-Levine [on the messiah] https://youtu.be/Oz-1uIi7AnA

Robert N Price, about the Johannine texts https://youtu.be/ntGAlqs7TVQ

Richard Carrier on the marketing problem after destruction of the Temple https://youtu.be/KfKW2YBoNAc

https://deepdivedocumentaries.com/watch-marketing-the-messiah-today/


Some real scholars listed here --

https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2 ... process-c/

Stein


Real scholars, unlike those impostors from the previous post?


Yes.

Stein
Stein
 
Posts: 2443

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42974  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 18, 2020 8:23 am

Stein wrote:
dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:An interesting documentary, 'Marketing the Messiah', has just been released for paid viewing online.

The following scholars contributed (in order of initial appearance; they all appear repeatedly):

  • Dr Geoffrey Dunn, Honorary Research Associate, Dept of Ancient Languages & Cultures, University of Pretoria; & member, Advisory Board of the Journal of Early Christian Studies
  • Dr Michael Bird, Lecturer in Theology, Ridley College
  • Dr Mark Goodacre, Department of Religious Studies, Duke University
  • Dr Brent Landau, BA, M.Div. Th.D, Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Texas,
  • Dr Chris Forbes, Senior Lecturer, Department of Ancient History, Macquarie University
  • Dr Shushma Malik, Lecturer in Classics, University of Roehampton
  • Dr Amy-Jill Levine, University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies, Vanderbilt
  • Prof David Runia, University of Melbourne and Australian Catholic University
  • Dr Richard Carrier, Author, On The Historicity Of Jesus
  • Dr Robert M Price, Author; Editor, the Journal Of Higher Criticism; Host of The Bible Geek,
  • Dr Raphael Lataster, Lecturer In Religious Studies, University Of Sydney
  • David Fitzgerald, who has a degree in history and was an associate member of a Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion, also appears.

Marketing The Messiah (Official Trailer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79yGILbkadk

Promo 2' https://youtu.be/REFL20Z5dzs

'Promo 3' https://youtu.be/ZdMmPU7H3DE

Mark Goodacre https://youtu.be/-QPNT4w4yCg

Amy Jill-Levine [on the messiah] https://youtu.be/Oz-1uIi7AnA

Robert N Price, about the Johannine texts https://youtu.be/ntGAlqs7TVQ

Richard Carrier on the marketing problem after destruction of the Temple https://youtu.be/KfKW2YBoNAc

https://deepdivedocumentaries.com/watch-marketing-the-messiah-today/


Some real scholars listed here --

https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2 ... process-c/

Stein


Real scholars, unlike those impostors from the previous post?


Yes.

Stein

:lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30864
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42975  Postby Hermit » May 18, 2020 9:03 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote: :lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?

And then there was this office clerk, a cobbler as he likened himself to. Certainly not a scholar. Pffft. His shit can be safely dismissed on account of that.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3714
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Historical Jesus

#42976  Postby proudfootz » May 18, 2020 1:50 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
:lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?


My state imposes severe penalties for practicing history without a license.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 10915

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42977  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 18, 2020 9:47 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote: :lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?

And then there was this office clerk, a cobbler as he likened himself to. Certainly not a scholar. Pffft. His shit can be safely dismissed on account of that.

I am not sure what you're trying to say here. My point isn't that something can be dismissed because it was said by somebody who calls themselves or is called a scholar. My point is that calling someone a scholar as the foundation of an appeal to authority is silly.
If you want to bring someone's opinion/claims up as an authoritative source you should list their expertise and/or actual professional title.

Especially since both on the topic of this thread, as well as discussions about pseudoscience, the label 'scholar' gets thrown around a lot to imply credibility when no actual authority can be demonstrated.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30864
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42978  Postby RealityRules » May 19, 2020 12:27 am

RealityRules wrote:
Dr Amy-Jill Levine, University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies, Vanderbilt

Amy Jill-Levine [on the messiah] https://youtu.be/Oz-1uIi7AnA

Amy-Jill Levine is author of one of the most significant Christian publications in recent years, The Jewish Annotated New Testament, - https://global.oup.com/academic/product ... u&lang=en& -
* The Jewish Annotated New Testament offers a window into the first-century world of Judaism from which the New Testament springs. There are explanations of Jewish concepts such as food laws and rabbinic argumentation. It also provides a much-needed corrective to many centuries of Christian misunderstandings of the Jewish religion

* specific information about how [each New testament] book relates to the Judaism of the period
User avatar
RealityRules
 
Name: GMak
Posts: 2867

New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42979  Postby RealityRules » May 19, 2020 1:09 am

RealityRules wrote:Dr Mark Goodacre, Department of Religious Studies, Duke University

Mark Goodacre https://youtu.be/-QPNT4w4yCg


"Mark Goodacre is the Frances Hill Fox Professor of Religious Studies at Duke University. He specializes in the New Testament and Christian Origins. He earned his MA, M.Phil and DPhil at the University of Oxford. He has been at Duke since 2005.

"His research interests include the Gospels and the Historical Jesus. Goodacre is the author of four books including [but not limited to] The Case Against Q: Studies in Markan Priority and the Synoptic Problem (Harrisburg, PA: Trinity Press International, 2002) and Thomas and the Gospels: The Case for Thomas's Familiarity with the Synoptics (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2012).

"He is well known for creating web resources on New Testament and Christian origins, including his podcast, the NT Pod. Goodacre has acted as consultant for several TV and radio programs including The Passion (BBC / HBO, 2008) and Finding Jesus (CNN, 2015-17). Goodacre is currently working on a book on John's knowledge of the Synoptic Gospels, as well as articles on Mary Magdalene, and the Gospel burial and resurrection accounts."

https://religiousstudies.duke.edu/peopl ... s-goodacre


Prior to starting at Duke, Goodacre was Senior Lecturer at the Department of Theology and Religion at the University of Birmingham.

He's studied & written extensively on the Synoptic Problem. Goodacre has represented similarities between the three Synoptics in a proportional Venn diagram in The Synoptic Problem: A Way Through the Maze. London: T & T International, concluding that:

  1. 93% of Mark is paralleled in Matthew;
  2. 74% of Matthew is paralleled in Luke;
  3. 77% of Luke is paralleled in Matthew
Quoting Matthew Larsen, he's stated that "there are no two works from the ancient world more similar to each other" than Matthew and Mark.
User avatar
RealityRules
 
Name: GMak
Posts: 2867

New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Re: Historical Jesus

#42980  Postby proudfootz » May 19, 2020 3:16 am

I'd suggest it's much more important when trying to assess the validity of an argument is to examine the argument than it is to nitpick about the messenger.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 10915

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 6 guests