Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43041  Postby proudfootz » May 26, 2020 8:04 am

Once you start multiplying loaves and fishes it's hard to stop!

But it is sportsmanlike of you to put up some of the material evidence of an historical Jesus.

Cheers!
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43042  Postby RealityRules » May 26, 2020 10:20 am

"... the day of Jesus's circumcision was the day "he began to shed his blood for us. … [It] was the beginning of our redemption." Saint Thomas Aquinas shared this view ...", via https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/how ... e-god-need
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43043  Postby Svartalf » May 26, 2020 10:58 am

proudfootz wrote:Once you start multiplying loaves and fishes it's hard to stop!

But it is sportsmanlike of you to put up some of the material evidence of an historical Jesus.

Cheers!

what physical evidence? any of the relics of Jesus, or people or things that knew or touched him are egregious fakes.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43044  Postby Hermit » May 26, 2020 11:17 am

Svartalf wrote:
proudfootz wrote:Once you start multiplying loaves and fishes it's hard to stop!

But it is sportsmanlike of you to put up some of the material evidence of an historical Jesus.

Cheers!

what physical evidence? any of the relics of Jesus, or people or things that knew or touched him are egregious fakes.

I suspect proudfootz forgot to include the sarcasm tag you require to understand his drift.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43045  Postby proudfootz » May 26, 2020 1:58 pm

Svartalf wrote:
proudfootz wrote:Once you start multiplying loaves and fishes it's hard to stop!

But it is sportsmanlike of you to put up some of the material evidence of an historical Jesus.

Cheers!

what physical evidence? any of the relics of Jesus, or people or things that knew or touched him are egregious fakes.


Yes, I'm afraid I was joshing with dogsgod.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43046  Postby Svartalf » May 26, 2020 4:16 pm

:thumbup: :doh: :oops:
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43047  Postby Stein » May 26, 2020 10:31 pm

Svartalf wrote::thumbup: :doh: :oops:

Forget it, Svartalf. Mythers like these don't go for consistency or clarity. They just go for whatever will serve in a single exchange. Tactics, not strategy. Strategy and a comprehensive presentation that works with Occam's Razor is not their thing. If you're starting to feel exasperated by the sheer murkiness of it all, join the club.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43048  Postby RealityRules » May 27, 2020 1:11 am

The most parsimonious explanation for the books of the NT is them being produced and developed as literature based on the LXX and Hebrew versions of the OT, Josephus' texts, and perhaps other accounts of what had befallen the Jews, as well as accounts of various theologies of Jewish, Jewish-Gnostic, and perhaps mystery cults, including the exegesis and eisegesis of Philo of Alexandria.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43049  Postby proudfootz » May 27, 2020 1:16 am

p1: entities should not be multiplied without necessity
p2: an historical Jesus is not necessary to explain the origin of christian literature
=====================================================================
conclusion: it is more parsimonious to consider the figure of Jesus a product of literature
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43050  Postby proudfootz » May 27, 2020 2:28 am

To return to some of the sidebars opened up in the discussion of the matter under discussion, Neil Godfrey on his site has posted an essay chronicling his thinking with regards to the Ascension of Isaiah (which some consider a datum of evidence for a wholly un-Earthly Jesus).

...because I know the AoI [Ascension of Isaiah] has a particular interest for many readers of Vridar, I want to begin here to think through some of the reasons for concluding that the “pocket gospel” of 11:2-22 was not part of the original Ascension of Isaiah. I have begun to suspect it might be original after all.

...

Of course, I welcome corrections anyone might point out as well as opposing ideas and rebuttals. The AoI is a problematic text for several reasons. The views I will express now are not the views I have always held and I cannot be confident they will be my views a year or so from now. They are tentative, even now.

<full post at link below>

https://vridar.org/2020/05/27/ascension ... DE6B6EFsJk


I'm particularly interested in seeing how the process of ratiocination is worked out.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43051  Postby proudfootz » May 27, 2020 8:23 am

RealityRules wrote:Raphael Lataster has a new book out


Forward by James Crossley

    Editor of the Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus

    Professor of Bible, Society and Politics at St Mary’s University, Twickenham


The author published an article addressing his book:

As a secular scholar, I, of course, reject hypotheses involving the Christ of Faith. Critical scholars can only reasonably debate the existence of the so-called Historical Jesus, that figure of the Gospels stripped of all divinity. Most secular scholars of the New Testament believe that this figure certainly existed. I noticed that this is an assumption, however, later finding it to be an unjustified assumption. The vast majority of biblical scholars have ignored the issue of Jesus’ existence for the past hundred years. Now, within five years of each other, there are two comprehensive academic monographs arguing the other way. Those wanting to know why we ought to accept the Historical Jesus’ historicity generally have to make do, if they do not directly engage with the sources themselves, with the specialist scholars merely asserting their opinions, and some popular books, like those recent ones from Ehrman and Casey.

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... istoricity
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43052  Postby Blip » May 27, 2020 8:52 am


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Re: Historical Jesus

#43053  Postby RealityRules » May 27, 2020 12:14 pm

proudfootz wrote:
... Now, within five years of each other, there are two comprehensive academic monographs arguing the other way.

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... istoricity

Carrier recently mentioned Thomas L Brodie's memoir, Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery (published in Sept. 2012 by Sheffield-Phoenix Press) as being peer-reviewed, but of course it's not a comprehensive monograph (though he does dedicate a chapter [or addendum] to taking Bart Erhman & his 2012 Did Jesus Exist? to task).

Some of Brodies' previous academic works on intertextuality were highly regarded, eg. -

  • The Quest for the Origin of John's Gospel: A Source-Oriented Approach, Oxford University Press, USA, 1993.
  • The Gospel According to John: A Literary and Theological Commentary, Oxford Uni Press, USA (1997)
  • The Crucial Bridge: The Elijah-Elisha Narrative, Michael Glazier (2000)
  • Genesis As Dialogue: A Literary, Historical, and Theological Commentary, Oxford Uni Press, USA (2001)
  • The Birthing of the New Testament: The Intertextual Development of the New Testament Writings (New Testament Monographs), Sheffield Phoenix Press Ltd (2006)
He supervised Adam Winn's excellent 2010 Mark and the Elijah-Elisha Narrative: Considering the Practice of Greco-Roman Imitation in the Search for Markan Source Material.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43054  Postby proudfootz » May 29, 2020 1:52 am

Continuing consideration of issues with the Ascension of Isaiah...

Is the “pocket gospel” (an account Jesus’ earthly birth and crucifixion in 11:2-22 of the Ascension of Isaiah) an original part of the Ascension of Isaiah and not a later interpolation?

<full discussion at link below>

https://vridar.org/2020/05/28/ascension ... more-96268
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43055  Postby Clive Durdle » May 29, 2020 2:38 pm

Just heard a minister reading the way truth life bit. It is a classic patsy spouting some rubbish, like someone throwing a soft ball, that the hero then hits out of the field. It is embarrassing to even consider it ever being a true record.

Has someone collected a series of good behaviour philosophy just so stories and topped and tailed it with some ripping yarns?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43056  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 30, 2020 8:51 am

proudfootz wrote:Continuing consideration of issues with the Ascension of Isaiah...

Is the “pocket gospel” (an account Jesus’ earthly birth and crucifixion in 11:2-22 of the Ascension of Isaiah) an original part of the Ascension of Isaiah and not a later interpolation?

<full discussion at link below>

https://vridar.org/2020/05/28/ascension ... more-96268


The creation of theoretical sub-texts and sub-gospels is characteristic of biblical source criticism. Classical source criticism does not require this ad hoc creation and may treat the text as it stands. Also that this text is "early" is yet another conjecture floating on a raft of other conjectures. There is no early attestation for this text. It could be as late as the 4th century. How many texts in the Nag Hammadi Library describe various levels of the cosmos?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43057  Postby proudfootz » May 30, 2020 11:49 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:
proudfootz wrote:Continuing consideration of issues with the Ascension of Isaiah...

Is the “pocket gospel” (an account Jesus’ earthly birth and crucifixion in 11:2-22 of the Ascension of Isaiah) an original part of the Ascension of Isaiah and not a later interpolation?

<full discussion at link below>

https://vridar.org/2020/05/28/ascension ... more-96268


The creation of theoretical sub-texts and sub-gospels is characteristic of biblical source criticism. Classical source criticism does not require this ad hoc creation and may treat the text as it stands. Also that this text is "early" is yet another conjecture floating on a raft of other conjectures. There is no early attestation for this text. It could be as late as the 4th century.


I'm curious to see how the discussion develops.

How many texts in the Nag Hammadi Library describe various levels of the cosmos?


I don't know how many, but I found one just by a simple Google search.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43058  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 01, 2020 4:25 am

Good summary of the prevailing view for many.
One may also add borrowing from the Stoics.

RealityRules wrote:The most parsimonious explanation for the books of the NT is them being produced and developed as literature based on the LXX and Hebrew versions of the OT, Josephus' texts, and perhaps other accounts of what had befallen the Jews, as well as accounts of various theologies of Jewish, Jewish-Gnostic, and perhaps mystery cults, including the exegesis and eisegesis of Philo of Alexandria.


They borrowed quite heavily as well from from the books of Stoic philosophers.
Particularly with respect to the forged correspondence between Dear Paul and Seneca.
Bruno Bauer once wrote that "Christianity is Stoicism triumphant in Jewish garb"

Did the fabricators of the NT canonical books use a blender?

Whatever they did it got packaged and circulated with a "History of the Christian Church Industry" written by Eusebius for his boss Constantine. Eusebius was the "Editor-In-Chief" of Constantine's NT Bible codices. Constantine invested in the church industry.

What was their motive? Russell Gmirkin in "Plato and the Hebrew Bible" cites Plato:

"If there exist laws under which men have been reared up and which (by the blessing of Heaven) have remained unaltered for many centuries, so that there exists no recollection or report of their ever having been different from what they now are, then the whole soul is forbidden by reverence and fear to alter any of the things established of old. By hook or by crook, then, the lawgiver must devise a means whereby this shall be true of his State. (Plato, Laws 7.798a-b)" ---- (Gmirkin, 254).
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43059  Postby proudfootz » Jun 01, 2020 5:35 pm

"By hook or by crook, then, the lawgiver must devise a means whereby this shall be true of his State."

This does seem to be true of many systems wanting to be accepted as the 'default' state of affairs by ascribing them to some unassailable authority, such as God or real Biblical scholars - even if they are in fact of recent vintage written by fallible men.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43060  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 03, 2020 12:22 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9znMWH3LC9E
The Hebrew Bible was Created in the Hellenistic Era! Dr. Robert M. Price & Russell Gmirkin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5d3ruUp0yE
Anti-Judaism in The New Testament with Dr. Jennifer Bird

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DBGem5MkOg
Daniel's Celestial Son of Man with Dr. John J. Collins
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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