Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43221  Postby Stein » Apr 14, 2021 7:24 am

RealityRules wrote:

There is of course some difference between Ant 18.3.3's "He was the Christ," and Ant. XX.200's "Jesus who was called Christ".


No shit, Sherlock.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43222  Postby proudfootz » Apr 15, 2021 9:34 am

Hector Avalos has shuffled off this mortal coil.

Dr. Hector Avalos died on April 12, 2021 after a battle with cancer.

https://www.grandonfuneralandcremationc ... r--Avalos/


He was agnostic on the existence of an Historical Jesus:

My own opinion, as an academic biblical scholar, is that there is not enough evidence to settle the question one way or the other. I am an agnostic about the existence of the historical Jesus.

https://www.amestrib.com/article/201303 ... /303029936


In another piece, Avalos has this to say about 'Jesus studies':


1 Biblical scholarship is still primarily a religionist apologetic enterprise despite claims to be engaging in historico-critical and descriptive scholarship.

2 A more specific Christian orientation is clearly revealed in the manner in which the ethics of Jesus are predominantly viewed as benign and paradigmatic, even among supposedly secular academic scholars.

3 However, many of the fundamental ethical principles announced or practiced by Jesus actually would be antithetical to those we otherwise describe as ‘acceptable’ or ‘good’ by some of the most widely accepted standards of ethics today.

4 Accordingly, such a predominantly benign view of Jesus’ ethics signals a continuing acceptance of Jesus as divine or as morally supra-human, and not as the flawed human being who should be the real subject of historico-critical study.

https://www.debunking-christianity.com/ ... jesus.html


[ETA - The above article is interesting in itself with regard to the 'ethics' attributed to Jesus.]
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43224  Postby Stein » Apr 18, 2021 1:34 pm

And this is how misinformation and bigotry against specialized information in the form of wacko conspiracy theories, Trumpism, and the like get spawned --

https://aeon.co/essays/why-humans-find- ... se-beliefs

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43225  Postby proudfootz » Apr 18, 2021 2:00 pm



Thanks for the link! :cheers:

Who knows?

In a thousand years people may celebrate the collapse of the American Empire as the best thing ever to happen to humanity.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43226  Postby proudfootz » Apr 18, 2021 2:28 pm

Stein wrote:And this is how misinformation and bigotry against specialized information in the form of wacko conspiracy theories, Trumpism, and the like get spawned --

https://aeon.co/essays/why-humans-find- ... se-beliefs

Stein


One of the interesting observations in the article:

To fully grasp the pernicious nature of the misinformation virus, we need to reconsider the innocence of the host. It’s easy to see ourselves as victims of deception by malicious actors. It’s also tempting to think of being misinformed as something that happens to other people – some unnamed masses, easily swayed by demagoguery and scandal.


For all the hand-wringing about the evils of propaganda, people seldom seem to acknowledge they might themselves be victims.

A little humility goes a long way.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43227  Postby dogsgod » Apr 18, 2021 9:29 pm

.....
Last edited by dogsgod on Apr 18, 2021 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43228  Postby dogsgod » Apr 18, 2021 9:55 pm

Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:

There is of course some difference between Ant 18.3.3's "He was the Christ," and Ant. XX.200's "Jesus who was called Christ".


No shit, Sherlock.

Stein


Stein, I get the impression from reading your posts that those that do not believe that Jesus came down to earth in the flesh are damned to Hell.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43229  Postby Stein » Apr 19, 2021 8:42 pm

dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:

There is of course some difference between Ant 18.3.3's "He was the Christ," and Ant. XX.200's "Jesus who was called Christ".


No shit, Sherlock.

Stein


Stein, I get the impression from reading your posts that those that do not believe that Jesus came down to earth in the flesh are damned to Hell.


We don't have any solid confirmation that there is a Hell. The extant primary sources for Enmetena and Urukagina in the Sumerian chronicles, the earlier books in the Rig-Veda and the material related to Krishna, the original writer of the J sections in the Exodus and the rest of the Torah, the earliest Digha-Nikaya sermons of Gautama Buddha, Chapters 3 through 9 of the Confucius Analects, Plato's Apology and Charmides relating to Socrates, the Q passages in Matthew and Luke, the better attested passages in the Hadith, the Sikh Japji Sahib on Guru Nanak, and the writings of Baha'u'llah, are all over the map on an afterlife of any kind. Quite likely the lack of unanimity from these empaths indicates it's all a mirage. The notion of a Hell may appear earliest in the Rig-Veda, and it's possible that is where Jesus of Galilee ultimately derives his notions of same. Since the notion of Hell does not originate from a locatable historic individual, so far as we can tell, it remains an amorphous folk notion that is highly dubious, very different from the paper trail for some sort of concrete divine energy, confirmed, one way or the other, by every founding empath for millennia.

By the way, Jesus of Galilee did not come down to Earth from anywhere. Pagan chronicles, like Tacitus and the

S E C O N D

Jesus reference in Josephus's Antiquities,

C H A P T E R

G O D -

D A M N

20
,

make it effing clear that Jesus of Galilee was a normal scrappy human being who had the sheer insolence to be both a Jew and a pioneering entirely human empath. So put that in your antisemitic pipe and smoke it.

[I don't know why this forum provides the wherewithal for colored type, since they get their knickers in a twist every time it's used.]

The only reason why the Jesus biography is important is because there is an unbroken line from Enmetena's freeing debt slaves in ancient Sumer, to the Hebrew slaves freed from Egypt's yoke, to King Asoka's freeing all slaves on becoming the first royal Buddhist, to Socrates teaching a slave, to slaves spearheading the first Christians in the Roman Empire, to Ulpian's "all men are equal", to Nanak's explicit enunciation of the brotherhood principle, to Deganawida's first Federation principle for the Iroquois, to Franklin's adoption of same for the Constitution, to Tsar Alexander's freeing of the serfs, to Martin Luther King's fight for equality in 20th-century America. Shitting on any part of that chain automatically associates one with the ante-bellum South and the Confederacy and the whole filthy baggage related to vindicating the most blatant inequalities throughout history and standing explicitly opposed to the tide of growing inclusivity throughout time. That filthy bandwagon is what Trump and January 6th are all about: the whole bogus notion that there are natural inequalities in the human family. News flash: there effing aren't.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43230  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 20, 2021 4:23 am

Stein wrote:Shitting on any part of that chain automatically associates one with the ante-bellum South and the Confederacy and the whole filthy baggage related to vindicating the most blatant inequalities throughout history and standing explicitly opposed to the tide of growing inclusivity throughout time.


I just do not follow this line of argument. I don't know what fallacy to name in order to identify the error in stating that "any part of that chain" (specifically, a historical Jesus) is essential to support the goal of social inclusivity.

Is it "appeal to the consequences"? The ante-bellum South, if I recall correctly, was based on a particularly pernicious interpretation of the teachings of Jesus. I guess we need the "historical Jesus" to reveal for us "the true message of Jesus".

Truth, I tell ya. Particularly absolute truth. It is hard to come by, even for scientists, and is likely impossible to come by except for mathematicians and theologians. What have historians to offer us as the true record of history?

When we want to know what kinds of policies optimize well-being, we need to have fairly precise measures of well-being and we have to make accurate observations in real time, scientifically. Ideological approaches to social policy, including those based on the supposed "true message of Jesus", have a mixed track record. Stein's ideological rigidity regarding the historical record and how Jesus fits into it (say, with respect to social progress) does not bode well, especially because we can adopt scientific approaches to social justice by assessing well-being which do improve upon ideological rigidity.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43231  Postby proudfootz » Apr 20, 2021 9:44 am

Yeah, I'm not buying the argument that 'if not for Jesus no one would have recognized the Brotherhood of Man.'

In my view it's pernicious to toss around the 'anti-Semite' canard around like it's confetti on New Year's Eve.

It debases the coinage.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43232  Postby james1v » Apr 20, 2021 10:52 pm

dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:

There is of course some difference between Ant 18.3.3's "He was the Christ," and Ant. XX.200's "Jesus who was called Christ".


No shit, Sherlock.

Stein


Stein, I get the impression from reading your posts that those that do not believe that Jesus came down to earth in the flesh are damned to Hell.


It has always been so.....
"When humans yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon". Thomas Paine.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43233  Postby proudfootz » Apr 21, 2021 11:52 am

Stein wrote: Pagan chronicles, like Tacitus and the second Jesus reference in Josephus's Antiquities, chapter 20, make it effing clear that Jesus of Galilee was a normal scrappy human being who had the sheer insolence to be both a Jew and a pioneering entirely human empath.


Sadly, the references here do not support the conclusion in any way, shape, or form.

Tacitus:

Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus...

If christians were universally hated among the Roman populace during the reign of Nero, it hardly testifies to their being possessed of any sort of moral superiority. It would certainly take a lot to be considered abominable in that milieu!

Josephus:

But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned...

According to gospel narratives the family of Jesus thought him quite insane, and Josephus says nothing which contradicts that assessment. This James is not depicted as endorsing anything his crazy brother might have stood for, or what that might have been. Indeed, there's nothing to suggest that James was not in fact guilty of breaking some law or other demanding a sentence of death.

Neither of these mentions of 'Christ' or 'Jesus' can be tortured into yielding any moral or ethical concerns of that fellow, nor that whatever fate might have befallen him had anything to do with his Jewishness.

:coffee:
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43234  Postby proudfootz » Apr 22, 2021 12:35 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:Shitting on any part of that chain automatically associates one with the ante-bellum South and the Confederacy and the whole filthy baggage related to vindicating the most blatant inequalities throughout history and standing explicitly opposed to the tide of growing inclusivity throughout time.


I just do not follow this line of argument. I don't know what fallacy to name in order to identify the error in stating that "any part of that chain" (specifically, a historical Jesus) is essential to support the goal of social inclusivity.

Is it "appeal to the consequences"? The ante-bellum South, if I recall correctly, was based on a particularly pernicious interpretation of the teachings of Jesus. I guess we need the "historical Jesus" to reveal for us "the true message of Jesus".


Some seem to be unaware that christianity, that bearer of Jesus's 'inclusivity' idea through the centuries, was also the carrier for the anti-Semitism virus from the gospel narratives to our present day. That's some filthy baggage right there!

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43235  Postby RealityRules » May 05, 2021 12:12 am

Exegetes increasingly saw Christ in the Old Testament, to the point they saw Him everywhere in it, and thus increasingly appropriated OT passages and allegorized them for the Church. Use of the Jewish scriptures lent authority to Christianity's new good news: without them, Christianity would have been completely new – something unlikely to have gained traction in those days in the Greco-Roman philosophical world.

Through their continuous exegetical interpreting and re-interpreting of the Greek versions of the Hebrew texts, Christians formed their own discourse eg. the Song of Songs was no longer considered an earthly love song, but was said to describe Christ’s love for the Church.

Marcion criticised the Jewish scriptures (but not the Jewish people) and lauded Paul as the only apostle who had rightly understood the new message of salvation as delivered by Christ. In reply to Marcion, other Christians established their own canon, defending the Jewish scriptures. They felt that the Gospel of Christ had to be presented as the fulfilment of the promises inherent in Judaism.

Justin Martyr used the Legend of the Septuagint for Christian purposes: he describes how Jewish prophecies of Christ were delivered 'a long time ago' by people who were ‘prophets of God'. He said that legend established the antiquity of the prophetic books and them as a source of authority. Justin referred to key texts as ‘the Books of the Prophecies’, in contrast with previous descriptions of them as ‘the Laws of the Jews’ in the key text tied to the Legend of the Septuagint, Letter to Aristeas, and as ‘laws made by Moses’ in Philo’s De Vita Mosis 2:37-40.

Furthermore, Justin plays down the Jewish connections in the Legend; he presented the prophecies as the work of ancient wise men who just happened to have emerged from among the Jews (First Apology 31.1). He said the prophecies spoken by the ‘prophets of God’ were ultimately not their own words, but utterances inspired by 'the Prophetic Spirit', something he refers to several times and which he said spoke as a single voice.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43236  Postby Agrippina » May 05, 2021 6:11 am

I've been away for a year or more, and I come back to find this ridiculous nonsense still hasn't been resolved.

Good god people, does it really matter? If he did exist, he's dead, shuffled off this mortal coil, is no longer with us. Let him rest in peace. If he didn't really exist, then it also doesn't matter because if he did and he was living up there, with himself, and his split personality watching us go slowly insane with this damn virus he sent to us. What sort of a god loving dead Jesus would do that.

Some things never change it seems. Oh and by the way - I'm back. Which is more than I can say about Jesus.
A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. - Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BCE - 43 BCE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43237  Postby dogsgod » May 05, 2021 6:39 am

Agrippina wrote:I've been away for a year or more, and I come back to find this ridiculous nonsense still hasn't been resolved.

Good god people, does it really matter? If he did exist, he's dead, shuffled off this mortal coil, is no longer with us. Let him rest in peace. If he didn't really exist, then it also doesn't matter because if he did and he was living up there, with himself, and his split personality watching us go slowly insane with this damn virus he sent to us. What sort of a god loving dead Jesus would do that.

Some things never change it seems. Oh and by the way - I'm back. Which is more than I can say about Jesus.

That's the point, it doesn't matter, some of us are just here for an argument.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43238  Postby Agrippina » May 05, 2021 10:25 am

dogsgod wrote:
Agrippina wrote:I've been away for a year or more, and I come back to find this ridiculous nonsense still hasn't been resolved.

Good god people, does it really matter? If he did exist, he's dead, shuffled off this mortal coil, is no longer with us. Let him rest in peace. If he didn't really exist, then it also doesn't matter because if he did and he was living up there, with himself, and his split personality watching us go slowly insane with this damn virus he sent to us. What sort of a god loving dead Jesus would do that.

Some things never change it seems. Oh and by the way - I'm back. Which is more than I can say about Jesus.

That's the point, it doesn't matter, some of us are just here for an argument.


I realised that about 10 years ago. Nice to meet you dogsgod. I'm the most talkative person in this lifeboat's history. As you'll soon discover when I get my mojo back again after its long sabbatical. Don't know if I'm going to be up for arguing just yet. :smoke:
A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. - Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BCE - 43 BCE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43239  Postby Spearthrower » May 05, 2021 3:47 pm

dogsgod wrote:
That's the point, it doesn't matter, some of us are just here for an argument.


No you're not!
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43240  Postby Agrippina » May 05, 2021 5:21 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
dogsgod wrote:
That's the point, it doesn't matter, some of us are just here for an argument.


No you're not!


:lol: The five-minute one, or the 10 minute one?
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