Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43461  Postby proudfootz » May 07, 2023 8:41 pm

TopCat wrote:So my ex-wife of almost 25 years, still a Christian after all these years (not unconnectedly), has brought to my attention a new dating technique that apparently makes it more credible for the Turin Shroud to be 20 centuries old rather than the medieval fake it's been thought to be for some decades based on radio carbon dating.

Wide Angle X-ray Scattering, WAXS, apparently looks at the crystalline structure of the cellulose in fibre samples, and allows measurement of the extent to which its structure has degraded over time.

https://www.mdpi.com/2571-9408/5/2/47

From the abstract:

The degree of natural aging of the cellulose that constitutes the linen of the investigated sample, obtained by X-ray analysis, showed that the TS fabric is much older than the seven centuries proposed by the 1988 radiocarbon dating. The experimental results are compatible with the hypothesis that the TS is a 2000-year-old relic, as supposed by Christian tradition, under the condition that it was kept at suitable levels of average secular temperature—20.0–22.5 °C—and correlated relative humidity—75–55%—for 13 centuries of unknown history, in addition to the seven centuries of known history in Europe


I don't know anything about the journal, or the WAXS technique, or the credence, if any, that should be given to the assumptions about temperature that apparently are required to date the thing to the required period. I say 'required period' - it also has a whiff of fitting the assumptions to the desired outcome about it, but again I'm not sure evaluating the claims is within my pay grade.

Anyone know anything about the technique, as applied in this case?


I know nothing about x-ray techniques, but the Turin Shroud deserves its own thread.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43462  Postby proudfootz » May 25, 2023 4:09 pm

A fairly level headed take on the obsession with The Historical Jesus...

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43463  Postby Stein » Aug 26, 2023 7:09 am

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43464  Postby proudfootz » Aug 28, 2023 1:24 am

Thanks for the link!

Should produce an interesting dialogue.

Dead sea scroll specialist Kipp Davis is doing a multi-part series on On the Historicity of Jesus (or at least select parts of it), and in his first video he demonstrated a catastrophic failure to actually read the text he is critiquing, such that he actually just ended up confirming everything I said, and objecting to things I didn’t say, all while confusedly thinking he was rebutting my peer-reviewed study, when actually he wasn’t even discussing its actual content.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/25010
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43465  Postby dogsgod » Sep 06, 2023 6:24 pm

proudfootz wrote:Thanks for the link!

Should produce an interesting dialogue.

Dead sea scroll specialist Kipp Davis is doing a multi-part series on On the Historicity of Jesus (or at least select parts of it), and in his first video he demonstrated a catastrophic failure to actually read the text he is critiquing, such that he actually just ended up confirming everything I said, and objecting to things I didn’t say, all while confusedly thinking he was rebutting my peer-reviewed study, when actually he wasn’t even discussing its actual content.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/25010


Good read. Nothing that Stein posts surprises me anymore.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43466  Postby RealityRules » Sep 07, 2023 4:57 am

Carrier has done another post: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/25199

Which includes the following:
(where there's the name, 'Joshua,' there would have been, in the Greek, Ἰησοῦς, Iēsoús, ie. 'Jesus')


in The Johannine Exegesis of God (de Gruyter 2004), Daniel Sadananda simply says “in Zechariah 6 God commands” Zechariah “to crown ‘Joshua’ the High Priest as King” (p. 31), and hence the Anatolê. He cites several scholars concurring. For example, Wayne Meeks, who in The Prophet King: Moses Traditions and the Johannine Christology (Brill, 1967) explains that yes, originally that passage may have referenced Zerubbabel but by the time of the first century that reading was lost, and the passage at that time said “to crown 'Joshua' the High Priest as king” (pp. 71-72).

. . . . . . .

    In the peer-reviewed Journal of the Adventist Theological Society 5.2 (Spring 1994), Frank Holbrook, once even editor of that selfsame journal, wrote “Christ’s Inauguration as King-Priest,” wherein he assumes that by the first century the Anatolê came to be understood as 'Joshua,' regardless of what was originally intended.

    In the peer-reviewed Journal of Biblical Literature 103 (1984), Bruce Malchow wrote, “The Messenger of the Covenant in Mal 3:1,” in which he points out this verse was “probably originally a description of the messianic crowning of Zerubbabel,” but “after he disappeared and the high priest became the political leader of the community, someone altered the text and substituted 'Joshua’s' name for Zerubbabel’s,” and “Thus, the passage became a description of a royal priest,” and therefore the Anatolê was switched from its original meaning, as a title of Zerubbabel, into a title of [Y'shua/Iēsoús]—all before the time of Philo.

    In the peer-reviewed Hebrew Annual Review 11 (1987), Beth Glazier-McDonald wrote “Malʾak habbərît: The Messenger of the Covenant in Mal 3:1,” in which she quotes Malchow (above), and concurs in taking this verse to by then have been understood (indeed, even intentionally) as referring to [Iēsoús/Y'shua/]Jesus, rather than Zerubbabel.

    In the peer-reviewed Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 34.2 (June 1991), Meredeth Kline wrote “The Structure of the Book of Zechariah,” in which he argues that [ Iēsoús] had come to be understood as the Anatolê, unifying the offices of king and priest (and subsequent references to there being “two” were regarded as the two offices, not two persons, thus eclipsing any role there may have originally been for Zerubbabel).

    In The Book of Zechariah (Eerdmans, 2016), from the New International Commentary on the Old Testament, Mark Boda observes regarding the Anatolê that there is “evidence of later revisions which shifted this original hope” in Zerubbabel “onto other royal figures from the Davidic line or the present priestly figure of 'Joshua'” (pp. 384–85), and that some scholars “have interpreted this reference to ‘Sprout’ [in the corresponding Hebrew] as identifying 'Joshua,' especially since the prophetic sign-act involved placing a crown on the head of 'Joshua' in 6:11 and the continuation of the speech refers to a priest on his throne (6:13)” (p. 396), and, again, the ‘harmony between the two’ then meant the priest and his throne or between his two roles (p. 397). Boda cites many examples of scholars arguing this, and dismisses these views only in respect to its original historical meaning, on which I agree (since I was never talking about its “original” meaning).

    In Behold Your King: The Hope For the House of David in the Book of Zechariah (T&T Clark, 2009), Anthony Robert Petterson concludes regarding the ‘shoot’ in Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12 that “the text now seems to identify 'Joshua' as the Shoot” so “it is a logical supposition the names were switched” and “the context further supports this,” e.g. a crowning is unexpected for a priest, etc. (p. 101).

    Petterson cites Carroll Stuhlmueller, Rebuilding with Hope: A Commentary on the Books of Haggai and Zechariah, from the International Theological Commentary (Eerdmans, 1988), p. 79, as concurring on this point.

    Harry Orlinsky and Norman Snaith, in Studies on the Second Part of the Book of Isaiah (Brill, 1967), conclude that “the natural meaning of the Hebrew is that 'Joshua' is the Branch,” based on “my servant” of Zech. 3:8, also there called the Branch (Anatolê [in Zech3:8] in Greek) and “they are of the opinion” that in the received text of Zech. 6 “apparently 'Joshua' is the Branch,” because “the whole section has evidently been interpreted later differently from what was originally intended” given the many variants across the Hebrew and Greek (pp. 246–47).

    Cameron Mackay, in “Zechariah in Relation to Ezekiel 40–48,” Evangelical Quarterly 40 (1968), argues that “in Zech. 6:9-15 the symbolic investiture of 'Joshua-Jesus' as the Branch is completed with crowns…displaying the royal role of one who ‘shall sit and rule . . . a priest upon his throne’,” asserting “the kingly and priestly character of Messiah, as it is asserted in Ps. 110:4,” arguing that the text might have originally had Zerubbabel here, “the name being changed when it became evident that the actual head of the nation was the high priest” (p. 208).

    Margaret Barker says that developmental story is pretty much the dominant view in her field, in “The Two Figures in Zechariah,” Heythrop Journal 18 (1977), pp. 38–46, where she gives detailed arguments for it possibly even being the original reading (“the title the ‘Branch’, given apparently to 'Joshua'” in the first place, pp. 41–42).
. . . . .

Philo interprets Zechariah 6:12 as naming what he elsewhere calls the “angel of many names,” the “firstborn” Son of God, and God’s celestial “high priest,” Anatolê. And his reasoning is that God made this angel to “rise up” (anatelei, the verb form of Anatolê) to rule and create the universe (OHJ, p. 203; cf. 200–05). This same pun is in Zechariah, in both the Greek and the Hebrew. And in Philo’s imagination it meant “rise up” to be God’s own Son and High Priest, his primary agent of creation. And indeed the Zechariah passage mentions the Anatolê building “God’s house,” and identifies only one person there as a high priest and “Son of the Righteous God,” [Iēsoús] ben Jehozedak. It’s improbable Philo just “accidentally” identified the Anatolê with God’s Son and High Priest and “didn’t notice” the God’s Son and High Priest in that verse is named Iesous.

... early Christians could have seen an allusion to resurrection through the cognate sense of “rising” / “springing forth” ...



Mark 16:20 has Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ ἀνατολῆς : 'Iēsoús from/since rising' (or, perhaps, with ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ ἀνατολῆς, 'since/from the rising of Iēsoús')

ἀνατολῆς or ἀνατολῶν is used twice in Luke, three times in Revelation, and five times in Matthew

Justin Martyr refers to the anatolê of Zechariah - ἀνατολὴ διὰ Ζαχαρίου - in Dialogue with Tryphon 126. And uses ἀνατολὴ or a version of it - ἀνατελεῖ or ἀνατολῶν - several other times therein, eg. in chapter 106:

“Καὶ ὅτι ὡς ἄστρον ἔμελλεν ἀνατέλλειν αὐτὸς διὰ τοῦ γένους τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ, Μωϋσῆς παρεδήλωσεν οὕτως εἰπών· 'Ἀνατελεῖ ἄστρον ἐξ Ἰακὼβ, καὶ ἡγούμενος ἐξ Ἰσραήλ.' Καὶ ἄλλη δὲ γραφή φησιν· 'Ιδοὺ ἀνὴρ, ἀνατολὴ ὄνομα αὐτῷ.' Ἀνατείλαντος* οὖν καὶ ἐν οὐρανῷ ἅμα τῷ γεννηθῆναι αὐτὸν ἀστέρος, ὡς γέγραπται ἐν τοῖς ἀπομνημονεύμασι τῶν ἀποστόλων αὐτοῦ, οἱ ἀπὸ Ἀῤῥαβίας μάγοι ἐκ τούτου ἐπιγνόντες παρεγένοντο, καί προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ.”

“And that He should arise like a star from the seed of Abraham, Moses showed beforehand when he thus said, ‘A star shall arise from Jacob, and a leader from Israel’ [Numbers 24.17]; and another Scripture says, 'Behold a man; Anatole is His name' [Zech 6:12]. Accordingly, at the rising of* a star in heaven at the time of His birth, as is recorded in the memoirs of His apostles, the Magi from Arabia, recognising the sign by this, came and worshipped Him.”


    * Mark 16:2 finishes ἀνατείλαντος τοῦ ἡλίου : ' at the rising of the sun' (KJV)

    Maybe the rising of the sun was a metaphor for 'Jesus' leaving the tomb(?)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43467  Postby RealityRules » Sep 09, 2023 1:13 am

RealityRules wrote:
Mark 16:2 finishes ἀνατείλαντος τοῦ ἡλίου : ' at the rising of the sun' (KJV)
Maybe [here] the rising of the sun was a metaphor for 'Jesus' leaving the tomb(?)



or 'the sun having arisen'

    a possible metaphor for Jesus having left the tomb before sunrise +/- perceived as a morning or heliacal starb

There's a variable, additional verse to Mark 16a that includes:

Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ1 ἀνατολῆς2 καὶ ἄχρι δύσεως ἐξαπέστειλεν δι’ αὐτῶν τὸ ἱερὸν3 καὶ ἄφθαρτον κήρυγμα τῆς αἰωνίου σωτηρίας

Iēsous apo1 anatolēs2 kai achri dyseōs . exapesteilen .di’ . autōn to hieron3 kai aphtharton kērygma tēs aiōniou sōtērias

Jesus,
.. "as a result of"1 rising2 to[ward] the west, sent out thru' them the 'sacred'3 & imperishable preaching of external salvation

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1 or perhaps, 'because of' (or maybe, 'hereafter')
2 most translations have this as, "from [the] east to [the] west" (or even to the East and [to] the West)
3 ἱερὸν/hieron usually means 'temple' or 'holy place'; its root word, hierós, means sacred.

a either as
  1. an additional verse 9 to the short version of Mark 16; or
  2. perhaps as an addition to v. 20, as occasionally here or in the interlinear here
b also see http://solar-center.stanford.edu/AO/dawn-rising.html
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43468  Postby RealityRules » Sep 10, 2023 1:36 am

.
Simon Gathercole (2005) 'The Heavenly ἀνατολή (Luke 1:78–9)' The Journal of Theological Studies 56(2); pp.471–488:

Abstract
A consideration of the ἀνατολή figure in Luke 1:78–9 leads to the suggestion that this is not merely a Davidic messiah, but also a heavenly, pre-existent figure. After a review of the main lines of debate in the past century, the discussion is centred on four points. First, the visitation (ἐπισκέψεται) gives a strong impression of a divine figure. Secondly, from the evidence of the LXX and elsewhere in Luke, the advent of the figure ‘from on high’ (ἐξ ὕψους) points clearly to a heavenly origin for the ἀνατολή. Thirdly, though less conclusively, the reference to Isaiah 9 LXX strengthens the impression of an angelic ruler figure. Finally, the ἀνατολή itself is defined as both light-bringer and heavenly messiah, especially in contrast to the Ἀνατολή character in Zech. 6:12, who comes not ‘from on high’ but ‘from beneath’.


Luke 1:78b—79a

... ἐν οἷς ἐπισκέψεται ἡμᾶς ἀνατολὴ ἐξ ὕψους .. (79) ἐπιφᾶναι τοῖς ἐν σκότει καὶ σκιᾷ θανάτου

.en hois episkepsetai hēmas anatolē ex hypsous (79) epiphanai tois en skotei kai skia thanatou

in which will visit us [the] anatolē from on high (79) to shine upon those in darkness & in [the] shadow of death


Luke 1:76 (and 77) refers to the child, Zechariah's child, John, as:

    προφήτης .Ὑψίστου ............. }
    prophētēs .Hypsistou ........... } being called to prepare the way (& to give knowledge of salvation)
    prophet of [the] Most High }

edit to add
This is part of what is referred to as 'Zechariah's song': Luke 1:67-79.
It is full of Old Testament imagery, including references to the Exodus, 2 Samuel 7:10-11, Psalms 18:2, 92:9-10, 132:17; Isaiah 9, 60:2-3; Jeremiah 31:3, and Malachi 3:1 and 4:2.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43469  Postby RealityRules » Sep 12, 2023 8:08 am

.
Jeremiah 23:5

λέγει Κύριος, καὶ ἀναστήσω τῷ Δαυεὶδ ἀνατολὴν δικαίαν,* καὶ^ βασιλεύσει βασιλεὺς
      . . . . . .ana.stēsō
'says the Lord, & I will raise up the David[ic] just* Anatolēn, and^ shall reign a[s] King'

                *righteous | or, ^also [to reign as a king]
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43470  Postby RealityRules » Sep 14, 2023 9:16 am

RealityRules wrote:.
Simon Gathercole (2005) 'The Heavenly ἀνατολή (Luke 1:78–9)' The Journal of Theological Studies 56(2); pp.471–488:
Abstract
A consideration of the ἀνατολή figure in Luke 1:78–9 leads to the suggestion that this is not merely a Davidic messiah, but also a heavenly, pre-existent figure. After a review of the main lines of debate in the past century, the discussion is centred on four points. First, the visitation (ἐπισκέψεται) gives a strong impression of a divine figure. Secondly, from the evidence of the LXX and elsewhere in Luke, the advent of the figure ‘from on high’ (ἐξ ὕψους) points clearly to a heavenly origin for the ἀνατολή. Thirdly, though less conclusively, the reference to Isaiah 9 LXX strengthens the impression of an angelic ruler figure. Finally, the ἀνατολή itself is defined as both light-bringer and heavenly messiah, especially in contrast to the Ἀνατολή character in Zech. 6:12, who comes not ‘from on high’ but ‘from beneath’.


In discussing Luke 1:78-9 in his 2006 book, The Preexistent Son: Recovering the Christologies of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Eerdmans, Gathercole notes, pp.239-40:

"The messianic sense of the word anatolé, which comes from...'growth',* is seen in the LXX particularly where it translates the Hebrew semah.31 The word is the name of a redeemer figure in Zechariah:

    'Behold, I am bringing my servant, Semah/Anatolé' (Zech 3.8)

    'Behold the man, Semah/Anatolé is his name' (Zech 6.12)
"and then explicitly in Rabbinic tradition:32

    'The Rabbis say, "This King Messiah, if he is from the living, his name is David. If he is from the dead, his name is David." Rabbi Joshua ben Levi said, "His name is Semah".' (y. Berakoth 2.4)
"In some contexts, the term has strong Davidic association; in others strongly heavenly resonances (...in early Judaism the two are by no means mutually exclusive). As an example of the latter, in Philo the figure has the nature of a kind of emanation from God:

    'I have also heard of one of the companions of Moses having uttered such an oracle as this: "Behold, a man whose name is Anatolé." A very novel appellation indeed, if you consider the one mentioned as consisting of body and soul. But if it is that incorporeal being no different from the divine image, then you will agree that his name Anatolé is attributed to him most appropriately. For the Father of all things has caused him to spring up - ἀνέτειλε - as his eldest son — the one elsewhere he calls his firstborn. And this one thus begotten imitates the ways of his Father: paying attention to this father's archetypal patterns, he has formed the kinds.' (De Confusione Lingurarum 62-3)
"Later, in fact, Philo identifies the figure with the divine Logos (Conf. 146)."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
31 On the meaning of the latter, see
. . W.H. Rose, Zemah and Zerubbabel: Messianic Expectations in the Early Postexilic Period (JSOTSup; Sheffield Acad., 2000). esp. 91-120.
32 See also Jeremiah 23-5. [see previous post^]



    * hence its LXX etymology from shoot/branch; and occasionally, 'glow'
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Re: ἀνατολὴ

#43471  Postby RealityRules » Sep 18, 2023 10:23 am

.
George Walser’s 2012 Jeremiah: A Commentary based on Ieremias in Codex Vaticanus (pp.328-329) notes:

ἀνατολὴν is a rendering of צמח. The meaning “shoot” is not attested before the Septuagint; but, since the verb ἀνατέλλω is used of plants springing up as early as Theophrastus (4-3 century BC), the meaning “shoot” is not very far-fetched.


The Hebrew word צמח, tsemach/ tsémakh (“branch”/"shoot"), is translated as anatolē three times in the Septuagint/LXX: in Zechariah 3.8 and 6.12; and in Jeremiah 23.5; though anatolē and versions of it, including its verb, ἀνατελεῖ/anatelei, appear more than three times in the LXX ...

In her 2016 book, Luke's Christology of Divine Identity, Nina Henrichs-Tarasenkova writes:

Although in the LXX ἀνατολή (anatolē) may refer to a Davidic Messiah when it translates Hebrew צמח (Zech. 3:8; 6:12), it refers predominantly to the rising of the sun (ἀνατολὴ ἡλίου; anatolē hēliou; eg., Deut. 4:49; Josh. 13:5). Therefore, it can be translated ‘east’ with reference to the geographical location of the rising sun (eg., Gen. 2:8; Deut. 3:17; Amos 8:12) or ‘dawn’ with reference to the time of the rising (eg., Wis. 16:28; 2 Macc. 10:28). Moreover, its cognate ἀνατέλλω (anatellō) may denote both the rise of the heavenly bodies, such as the sun (e.g., Gen. 32:31 [32:32, LXX]), moon (Isa. 60:19), and stars (Job 3:9; Isa. 14:12), and the rise of a messiah (e.g., Num. 24:17; Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Ezek. 29:21).


And Henrichs-Tarasenkova notes
reference to the ‘sun of righteousness’ rising (ἀνατελεῖ = anatelei) in Malachi 4:1–2 [3:19–20, LXX] ... This sun is not a regular sun that rises daily; it is the ‘sun of righteousness’ that brings healing and salvation at the coming of the day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5 [3:22, LXX]). Its salvific function at the coming of the day of the Lord specifies ‘the Lord’ as YHWH. Furthermore, one can find the verb ἀνατέλλω (anatellō) used to speak of the Lord’s glory rising, which parallels the coming of the light (Isaiah 60:1).

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Re: De Confusione Lingurarum 60-64

#43472  Postby RealityRules » Sep 20, 2023 11:21 pm

.
In the two sections immediately before §62 of De Confusione Lingurarum - ie. in sections 60 and 61 - Philo uses anatole or a cognate three times and its verb, ἀνέτειλεν, once, when referring to virtues or metaphors for virtues:

(60) Τοὺς δὲ συνομοσαμένους ἐπʼ ἀδικήμασιν “ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν” φησι “κινήσαντας εὑρεῖν πεδίον ἐν τῇ γῇ Σεναὰρ κἀκεῖ κατοικῆσαι,” (Gen. 11.2) φυσικώτατα· διττὸν γὰρ εἶδος τῆς κατὰ τὴν ψυχὴν ἀνατολῆς, τὸ μὲν ἄμεινον, τὸ δὲ χεῖρον · ἄμεινον μέν, ὅταν ἡλιακῶν ἀκτίνων τρόπον ἀνάσχῃ τὸ ἀρετῶν φέγγος · χεῖρον δʼ, ὅταν αἱ μὲν ἐπισκιασθῶσι, κακίαι δὲ ἀνάσχωσι. (61) παράδειγμα τοῦ μὲν προτέρου τόδε· “καὶ ἐφύτευσεν ὁ θεὸς παράδεισον ἐν Ἐδὲμ κατὰ ἀνατολάς” (Gen. 2:8), οὐ χερσαίων φυτῶν, ἀλλʼ οὐρανίων ἀρετῶν, ἃς ἐξ ἀσωμάτου τοῦ παρʼ ἑαυτῷ φωτὸς ἀσβέστους εἰσαεὶ, γενησομένας ὁ φυτουργὸς ἀνέτειλεν.

[60] Now those who conspired for iniquities, “moved,” we are told, “from theeast’ (or ‘rising’) and found a plain in the land of Shinar [in Babylon] and dwelt there” (Gen. 11:2). How true to nature! For there are two kinds of “risingin the soul, the better and the worse. The better is when the beam of the virtues ['projects'/'upholds'] like the rays of the sun; the worse when virtues are overshadowed, & wickedness prevails. [61] An example of the former [ie. the better]: “And God planted a [paradise] in Eden in the east/towards the sun-rise” (Gen. 2:8). Not of terrestrial plants, but of heavenly virtues of his own accord, light inextinguishable forever, born into a new state [of being] by the Creator [and] which he raised up.

Philo: Greek Text,” and Philo, trans. F.H. Colson, G.H. Whitaker, and J.W. Earp, vol. 4, The Loeb Classical Library (London; Cambridge, MA: William Heinemann Ltd; Harvard University Press, 1929–1962): pp. 42–4 and 43-5, respectively


Starting §62 with "And I have heard" with reference to hearing a pointed oracle from "Moses' companion" ties that to what Philo had just written in 60-61, not just with several uses of anatole and its verb, ἀνέτειλεν, therein,^ but to the end of §61 - "φωτὸς ἀσβέστους εἰσαεὶ, γενησομένας ὁ φυτουργὸς ἀνέτειλεν" - "light inextinguishable forever, born of the Creator which he raised up" (and §63 elaborates §62):

(62) ἤκουσα μέντοι καὶ τῶν Μωυσέως ἑταίρων τινὸς ἀποφθεγξαμένου τοιόνδε λόγιον· “ἰδοὺ ἄνθρωπος ᾧ ὄνομα ἀνατολή” (Zech. 6:12), καινοτάτη γε πρόσρησις, ἐάν γε τὸν ἐκ σώματος καὶ ψυχῆς συνεστῶτα λέγεσθαι νομίσῃς· ἐὰν δὲ τὸν ἀσώματον ἐκεῖνον, θείας ἀδιαφοροῦντα εἰκόνος, ὁμολογήσεις ὅτι εὐθυβολώτατον ὄνομα ἐπεφημίσθη τὸ ἀνατολῆς αὐτῷ· (63) τοῦτον μὲν γὰρ πρεσβύτατον υἱὸν ὁ τῶν ὅλων ἀνέτειλε πατήρ, ὃν ἑτέρωθι πρωτόγονον ὠνόμασε, καὶ ὁ γεννηθεὶς μέντοι μιμούμενος τὰς τοῦ πατρὸς ὁδούς πρὸς παραδείγματα ἀρχέτυπα ἐκείνου βλέπων ἐμόρφου τὰ εἴδη

[62] And I have heard from one of Moses' companions a certain pointed oracle: “Behold a man whose name is [the] Anatolē” (Zech. 6:12), strangest of titles, surely, if you suppose that a being composed of soul and body is here described. But if you suppose that it is that an incorporeal one, who differs not a whit from the divine image, you will agree that the name of “rising” assigned to him quite truly describes him. [63] For that man is the eldest son whom the Father of all raised up, and elsewhere calls him His first-born, and [he thus born] followed[/imitated] the Father's ways ... [see below]

Philo: Greek Text,” and Philo, trans. F.H. Colson, G.H. Whitaker, and J.W. Earp, vol. 4, The Loeb Classical Library (London; Cambridge, MA: William Heinemann Ltd; Harvard University Press, 1929–1962): pp. 42–4 and 43-5, respectively


edit to add: an alternative translation of the end of §63:
(63) ... πρὸς παραδείγματα ἀρχέτυπα ἐκείνου βλέπων ἐμόρφου τὰ εἴδη
[63] ..with the paradigm of the archetypes of him who beholds* the form of 'that which is seen': the visible form; the species

    * or 'discerns'
(Philo also writes about ἀνατολῆς/rising in section 64 (and 67), but in relation to other adverse, contrary ways.)
Last edited by RealityRules on Sep 21, 2023 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zechariah 6.11-12, John 19.5 and Matthew 24:27

#43473  Postby RealityRules » Sep 21, 2023 10:52 am

.
Zechariah 6.11-12 Septuagint (LXX)

v.11
καὶ λήψῃ ἀργύριον καὶ χρυσίον καὶ ποιήσεις στεφάνους
And you shall take silver & gold and make crowns

καὶ ἐπιθήσεις ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν Ἰησοῦ τοῦ Ιωσεδεκ τοῦ ἱερέως τοῦ μεγάλου
..to place upon the head of Iesous the son of Josedek the great priest

v.12
καὶ ἐρεῖς πρὸς αὐτόν,
τάδε λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ,
ἰδοὺ ἀνήρ, Ἀνατολὴ ὄνομα αὐτῷ, καὶ ὑποκάτωθεν αὐτοῦ ἀνατελεῖ καὶ οἰκοδομήσει τὸν οἶκον κυρίου

And you shall say to him,
'Thus says the Lord Almighty,
"behold a man, Rising is his name, and from below he shall arise and build the house of the Lord".'

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
John 19:5

... Ἰησοῦς φορῶν τὸν ἀκάνθινον στέφανον καὶ τὸ πορφυροῦν ἱμάτιον
... .Jesus wearing the thorny .crown .and the purple robe

    And {Pilate} says to them, "Behold the man"
      . . Καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· ἴδε ὁ ἄνθρωπος.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The use of 'the' as in the definitive article for the man fits with what happens with the change from the use of the term, 'a son of man,' in the OT to the use of the term, 'the Son of Man,' in the NT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Matt 24:27

ὥσπερ γὰρ ἡ ἀστραπὴ ἐξέρχεται ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν καὶ φαίνεται ἕως δυσμῶν, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου

For as the lightning comes forth from the east/rising and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43474  Postby RealityRules » Sep 23, 2023 1:59 pm

.
ἀνατολή (anatolḗ, an-at-ol-ay'), Strong's G395,
from ἀνατέλλω, Strongs G393:
ἀνατέλλω (anatéllō, an-at-el'-lo) ... to (cause to) arise:—(a-, make to) rise, at the rising of, spring (up), be up.
verb
ἀνατέλλω; 1 aorist ἀνέτειλα; perfect ἀνατέταλκα;
  1. transitive, to cause to rise: τὸν ἥλιον, Matthew 5:45
    (of the earth bringing forth plants, Genesis 3:18; of a river producing something, Homer, Iliad 5, 777).
  2. intransitive, to rise, arise: light, Matthew 4:16 (Isaiah 58:10); the sun, Matthew 13:6; Mark 4:6; Mark 16:2; James 1:11; the clouds, Luke 12:54; φωσφόρος, 2 Peter 1:19; tropically, to rise from, be descended from, Hebrews 7:14.
The earlier Greeks commonly used ἀνατέλλειν of the sun and moon, and ἐπιτέλλειν of the stars; but Aelian, Pausanias, Stobaeus, and other later writings neglect this distinction; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 124f.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

    There's also ἐξανατέλλω (exanatéllō); from G1537 and G393;
    to start up out of the ground, ie. germinate: — spring up:
    ἐξανατέλλω: 1 aorist ἐξανέτειλα;
    1. transitive, to make spring up, cause to shoot forth: Genesis 2:9, etc.
    2. intransitive, to spring up: Matthew 13:5; Mark 4:5. (Rare in secular authors [cf. Winer's Grammar, 102 (97)].)
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

ἀνατολή, -ῆς, ἡ, (from ἀνατέλλω, which see), as in Greek writings;
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
  1. a rising (of the sun and stars); light rising ἐξ ὕψους, Luke 1:78.
  2. the east (the quarter of the sun's rising): Matthew 2:2, 9; Revelation 21:13 (Griesbach ἀνατολῶν); Herodian, 2, 8, 18 (10); 3, 5, 1; Josephus, contra Apion 1, 14, 3 [6; 1, 26, 6; Mark 16 WH (rejected) 'Shorter Conclusion']; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 5, 6; Ignatius ad Rom. 2, 2; Melito quoted in Eusebius, h. e. 4, 26, 14; with ἡλίου added, Revelation 7:2 [R G T Tr WH text]; plural, eastern regions, the east [Winer's Grammar, 176 (166)]: Matthew 2:1; Matthew 8:11; Matthew 24:27; Luke 13:29 (Sept., Herodotus, Plato, Polybius, Plutarch, others; Philo in Flacc. § 7);1 with the addition of ἡλίου, Revelation 16:12 [-λῆς T Tr text WH text; Revelation 7:2 L WH marginal reading].
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

    1 There's also Philo's De Confusione Lingurarum too, of course.

    And there's no mention of the [other] verb, ἀνατελεῖ/anatelei, here; though ἀνατέλλει is mentioned on the webpage for ἀνατέλλω among the Greek inflections list
    (this is the same at the biblehub webpage for ἀνατολή : it also uses Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Greek Lexicon
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43475  Postby RealityRules » Sep 23, 2023 11:41 pm

Other words used in the NT that mean to rise or to raise up are

ἀνίστημι, anistémi: to raise up, to rise (Strong's 450)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
ἀνίστημι: future ἀναστήσω; 1 aorist ἀνέστησα; 2 aorist ἀνέστην, imperative ἀνάστηθι and (Acts 12:7; Ephesians 5:14 and L WH text in Acts 9:11) ἀνάστα (Winers Grammar, § 14, 1 h.; (Buttmann, 47 (40))); middle, present ἀνισταμαι; future ἀναστήσομαι; (from Homer down);

I. Transitively, in the present

  1. 1 aorist and future active, to cause to rise, raise up (הֵקִים):

    1. properly, of one lying down: Acts 9:41.
    2. to raise up from death: John 6:39f, 44, 54; Acts 2:32; Acts 13:34 (so in Greek writings).
    3. to raise up, cause to be born: σπέρμα offspring (Genesis 38:8), Matthew 22:24 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 33 (32)); τόν Χριστόν, Acts 2:30 Rec. to cause to appear, bring forward, τινα τίνι one for anyone's succor: προφήτην, Acts 3:22; Acts 7:37; τόν παῖδα αὐτοῦ, Acts 3:26.

II. Intransitively, in the perfect pluperfect and 2 aorist active, and in the middle;

  1. to rise, stand up; used

    1. of persons lying down (on a couch or bed): Mark 1:35; Mark 5:42; Luke 8:55; Luke 11:7; Acts 9:34, 40. of persons lying on tht ground: Mark 9:27; Luke 17:19; Luke 22:46; Acts 9:6.
    2. of persons seated: Luke 4:16 (ἀνέστη ἀναγνῶναι); Matthew 26:62; Mark 14:60; Acts 23:9.
    3. of those who leave a place to go elsewhere: Matthew 9:9; Mark 2:14; ( R G); Luke 4:38; Luke 23:1; Acts 9:30. Hence, of those who prepare themselves for a journey (German sichaufmachen): Mark 7:24; Mark 10:1; Luke 1:39; Luke 15:18, 20; Acts 10:20; Acts 22:10. In the same way the Hebrew קוּם (especially וַיָּקָם) is put before verbs of going, departing, etc., according to the well known oriental custom to omit nothing contributing to the full pictorial delineation of an action or event; hence, formerly וַיָקָם and ἀναστάς were sometimes incorrectly said to be redundant; cf. Winer's Grammar, 608 (565). ἀναστῆναι ἀπό to rise up from something, ie. from what one has been doing while either sitting or prostrate on the ground: Luke 22:45.
    4. of the dead; 2 aorist, with ἐκ νεκρῶν added: Matthew 17:9 R G WH marginal reading; Mark 9:9; Mark 12:25; Luke 16:31; Luke 24:46; John 20:9; Ephesians 5:14 (here figuratively); with ἐκ νεκρῶν omitted: Mark 8:31; Mark 16:9; Luke 9:8, 19 (22 L T Tr marginal reading WH marginal reading); Luke 24:7; Romans 14:9 Rec.; so (without ἐκ νεκρῶν) in the future middle also: Matthew 12:41; (, L WH marginal reading); Matthew 20:19 (R G L Tr marginal reading WH marginal reading); Mark 10:34; Luke 11:32; Luke 18:33; John 11:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
  2. to arise, appear, stand forth; of kings, prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents: Acts 5:36; Acts 7:18. middle, Romans 15:12; Hebrews 7:11, 15. of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, Luke 10:25; Acts 6:9; or to undertake some business, Acts 5:6; or to attempt something against others, Acts 5:17. Hence, ἀναστῆναι ἐπί τινα to rise up against anyone: Mark 3:26 (עַל קוּם). (Synonym: see ἐγείρω, at the end Compare: ἐπανίστημι, ἐξανίστημι.)
https://biblehub.com/greek/450.htm


ἐγείρω, egeiró : to raise up; to waken (Strong's 1453)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon]
ἐγείρω; future ἐγερῶ 1 aorist ἤγειρα; passive, present ἐγείρομαι, imperative 2 person singular ἐγείρου (Mark 2:9 Tr WH), Luke 8:54 (where L Tr WH ἔγειρε), 2 person plural ἐγείρεσθε; perfect ἐγήγερμαι; 1 aorist ἠγέρθην (cf. Buttmann, 52 (45); Winer's Grammar, § 38, 1); 1 future ἐγερθήσομαι; middle, 1 aorist imperative ἐγεῖραι Rec.; but, after good manuscripts, Griesbach has in many passages and lately L T Tr WH have everywhere in the N. T. restored ἔγειρε, present active imperative used intransitively and employed as a formula for arousing; properly, rise, i.e. "Up! Come!" cf. ἄγε; so in Euripides, Iph. A. 624; Aristophanes ran. 340; cf. Fritzsche on Mark, p. 55; (Buttmann, 56 (49), 144f (126f); Kühner, § 373, 2); the Sept. generally for הֵעִיר and הֵקִים; to arouse, cause to rise;

  1. as in Greek writings from Homer down, to arouse from sleep, to awake: Acts 12:7; (Mark 4:38 T Tr WH); passive to be awaked, wake up, (A. V. arise, often including thus the subsequent action (cf. 3 below)): Matthew 25:7; Mark 4:27; (ἀπό τοῦ ὕπνου, Matthew 1:24 L T Tr WH); ἐγερθείς with the imperative Matthew 2:13, 20; with a finite verb, Matthew 2:14, 21; Matthew 8:26; (Luke 8:24 R G L Tr marginal reading); ἐγείρεσθε, Matthew 26:46; Mark 14:42. Metaphorically, ἐξ ὕπνου ἐγερθῆναι, to arise from a state of moral sloth to an active life devoted to God, Romans 13:11; likewise ἔγειρε (Rec. ἐγεῖραι) arise, ὁ καθεύδων, Ephesians 5:14.
    .
  2. to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life: with νεκρούς added, John 5:21; Acts 26:8; 2 Corinthians 1:9. ἔγειρε [Rec. ἐγεῖραι) arise, Mark 5:41; passive ἐγείρου, Luke 8:54 (R GT); ἐγέρθητι, arise from death, Luke 7:14; ἐγείρονται οἱ νεκροί, Matthew 11:5; Luke 7:22; Luke 20:37; 1 Corinthians 15:15, 16, 29, 32 (Isaiah 26:19); ἐγείρειν ἐκ νεκρῶν, from the company of the dead (cf. Winers Grammar, 123 (117); Buttmann, 89 (78)), John 12:1, 9; Acts 3:15; Acts 4:10; Acts 13:30; Romans 4:24; Romans 8:11; Romans 10:9; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Hebrews 11:19; 1 Peter 1:21; passive, Romans 6:4, 9; Romans 7:4; 1 Corinthians 15:12, 20; John 2:22; John 21:14; Mark 6:16 (T WH omits; Tr brackets ἐκ νεκρῶν); Luke 9:7; (Matthew 17:9 L T Tr WH text); ἀπό τῶν νεκρῶν, Matthew 14:2; Matthew 27:64; Matthew 28:7 (νεκρόν ἐκ θανάτου καί ἐξ ᾅδου, Sir. 48:5; for הֵקִ֖יץ in 2 Kings 4:31); ἐγείρειν simply: Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:37; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 4:14; passive, Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23 (L WH marginal reading ἀναστήσεται); (Matthew 20:19 T Tr text WH text); Mark ( T WH (see above)); Luke 24:6 (WH reject the clause); Romans 4:25; 1 Corinthians 15:4, etc.
    .
  3. in later usage generally to cause to rise, raise, from a seat, bed, etc.; passive and middle to rise, arise; used

    1. of one sitting: ἐγείρεται (L Tr WH ἠγέρθη) ταχύ, John 11:29, cf. John 11:20; present active imperative ἔγειρε (see above), Mark 10:49 (not Rec.), cf. Mark 10:46; hence (like the Hebrew קוּם, Genesis 22:3; 1 Chronicles 22:19), in the redundant manner spoken of under the word ἀνίστημι, II. 1 c. it is used before verbs of going, etc.: ἐγερθείς ἠκολούθει (ἠκολούθησεν R G) αὐτῷ, Matthew 9:19; ἔγειρε (R G ἐγεῖραι) καί μέτρησον, Revelation 11:1.
    2. of one reclining: ἐγείρεται ἐκ τοῦ δείπνου, John 13:4; ἐγείρεσθε, John 14:31.
    3. of one lying, to raise up: ἤγειρεν αὐτόν, Acts 10:26; ἐγέρθητε arise, Matthew 17:7; ἔγειρε (see above) Acts 3:6 (L Tr text brackets); ἠγέρθη ἀπό τῆς γῆς, he rose from the earth, Acts 9:8; to draw out (ie. raise up) an animal from a pit, Matthew 12:11.
    4. of one 'down' with disease, lying sick: active, Mark 9:27; Acts 3:7; ἐγερεῖ αὐτόν ὁ κύριος, will cause him to recover, James 5:15; passive Matthew 8:15; ἔγειρε ((Rec. ἐγεῖραι, so Griesbach (doubtfully in Matt.)), see above) arise: Matthew 9:5; John 5:8; Acts 3:6 (T WH omit; Tr brackets).
  4. To raise up, produce, cause to appear;

    1. to cause to appear, bring before the public (anyone who is to attract the attention of men): ἤγειρε τῷ Ἰσραήλ σωτῆρα, Acts 13:23 Rec.; ἤγειρεν αὐτοῖς τόν Δαυειδ εἰς βασιλέα, Acts 13:22 (so הֵקִים, Judges 2:18; Judges 3:9, 15); passive ἐγείρομαι, to come before the public, to appear, arise": Matthew 11:11; Matthew 24:11, 24; Mark 13:22; Luke 7:16; John 7:52 (cf. Winers Grammar, 266 (250); Buttmann, 204 (177)); contextually, to appear before a judge: Matthew 12:42; Luke 11:31.
    2. ἐπί τινα to raise up, incite, stir up, against one; passive to rise against: Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:10.
    3. to raise up i.e. cause to be born: τέκνα τίνι, Matthew 3:9; Luke 3:8; [ἤγειρεν] κέρας σωτηρίας, Luke 1:69 (see ἀνίστημι, I c. ἐξανίστημι, 1); θλῖψιν τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου, to cause affliction to arise to my bonds, ie. tire & misery of my imprisonment to be increased by tribulation, Philippians 1:16-17L T Tr WH.
    4. of buildings, to raise, construct, erect: τόν ναόν, John 2:19f (so הֵקִים, Deuteronomy 16:22; 1 Kings 16:32. Aelian de nat. an. 11, 10; Josephus, Antiquities 4, 6, 5; Herodian, 3, 15, 6 (3rd edition, Bekker); 8, 2, 12 (5th edition, Bekker); Lucian, Pseudomant. § 19; Anthol. 9, 696. 1 Esdr. 5:43; Sir. 49:13; Latinexcito turrem, Caesar b. g. 5, 40;sepulcrum, Cicero, legg. 2, 27, 68). (Ammonius: ἀναστῆναι καί ἐγερθῆναι διαφέρει. ἀναστῆναι μέν γάρ ἐπί ἔργον, ἐγερθῆναι δέ ἐξ ὕπνου; cf. also Thomas Magister, Ritschl edition, p. 14, 10f. But see examples above. Compare: διεγείρω, ἐξεγείρω, ἐπεγείρω, συνεγείρω.)
https://biblehub.com/greek/1453.htm


ἐξεγείρω, exegeiró: to raise up (Strong's 1825)

1825 eksegeírō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 1453 /egeírō, "raise")

ἐξεγείρω (1 Corinthians 6:14 Lachmann text); future ἐξεγέρω; 1 aorist ἐξήγειρά; to arouse, raise up (from sleep; Sophocles, Euripides, Xenophon, others); from the dead (Aeschylus cho. 495), 1 Corinthians 6:14. to rouse up, stir up, incite: τινα, to resistance, Romans 9:17 (τόν θυμόν τίνος, 2 Macc. 13:4, cf. 2 Chronicles 36:22), where some explain the words ἐξήγειρά σε "I have raised thee up into life, caused thee to exist, or I have raised thee to a public position, set thee up as king" (Josephus, Antiquities 8, 11, 1 βασιλεύς γάρ ἐξεγείρεται ὑπ' ἐμοῦ); but the objection to these interpretations lies in the fact that Paul draws from Romans 9:17 what he says in Romans 9:18, and therefore ἐξεγείρειν must be nearly synonymous with σκληρύνειν (but see Meyer).

https://biblehub.com/greek/1825.htm

    1 Cor 6:14 has both God and the Lord performing both ἤγειρεν/ēgeiren (Strongs 1453)^^ and ἐξεγερεῖ/exegerei (Strongs 1825)^ "by the power of him."

ἐξανάστασις, exanastasis: a rising again

eksanástasis (from 1537 /ek, "completely out from," intensifying 450 /anístēmi, "rise up")

ἐξανάστασις, ἐξαναστασεως, ἡ (ἐξανίστημι, which see), a rising up (Polybius 3, 55, 4); a rising again, resurrection: τῶν νεκρῶν or (L T Tr WH) ἡ ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, Philippians 3:11.

https://biblehub.com/greek/1815.htm
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